Should we allow Save Deletion?


#1

The point of this thread is to have a centralized place for the discussion/debate of save deletion.

What is save deletion? Save deletion is a glitch that when you save and load a map, save again, die, then delete your save, will reload the map as if you had opened the map via console, with all weapons, health, ammo, and items on the map.

Why are we talking about it (again)? Because the Half-Life 2 community (what remains of it at the time) is still at least somewhat split on this glitch.

If you have arguments, for or against save deletion, please reply to this thread with them. And no, saying “It’s dumb” or “rules are arbitrary” are not valid points, so please don’t use them.

Edit: Added a poll


#2

It is dumb, BUT in some cases it saves a load of time, for example:

-It would make the boatless strat easier because you could use the old route for canals_11 instead of the clip.
-You can skip the whole autocannon section in ep2 with save deletion, it’d save tons of time.

It’s not really modifying the game, so, I’m for it.


#3

The biggest problem is the lost continuity of the run when you use this trick. In those cases I think it would make sense to include the game menu (showing the save deletion process) in the video itself, if we’re talking about segmented runs, kinda like Mirror’s Edge speedruns go to the main menu in order to skip some sections of the game.


#4

Doesn’t this also apply to Portal? I’m sure I remember people talking about places where it could be used there.


#5

I am in favor of save deletion, BUT:
No using the ‘kill’ command to kill yourself and no ‘reload’ to skip the suicide altogether. These are not actions you can do normally without having to bind it to a key using the console (similar to ch_createairboat, ent_fire and wait). Binding actions to more than 2 keys isn’t possible either, but there’s hardware solutions for that so I say allow that just to prevent people from going through useless effort.

If a save deletion were to occur on the first map of a chapter, you could also go into the main menu and use the chapter selection screen, because you don’t unlock a chapter in there until you actually reach it. Therefore this would work from a complete fresh game install perspective.

**Problems: **
Continuity might be lost, yeah, but who cares? Your goal is to reach the end of the game without using console or using stuff you unlocked from earlier playthroughs (future chapter selection buttons). If you want continuity, run SS and don’t do any save/loading. Clipping through the floor 50 times is a more stupid glitch than deleting a save once and then loading it.

Timing the main menu is a MUST. This also applies to the pause glitch/pausing in general (OoB speed removing, maybe other stuff I dont know of) as per previous discussion. Fatalis apparently doesn’t want to work on sourcesplit anymore, so someone needs to come up with a proper way of timing the main menu (but not loadings).

Dumb and meaningless counterarguments that I want to debunk before someone brings them up
Hurr durr, this is literally doing ‘map’ in console. HURUHRHRUR.
Except it isn’t. When did you ever type map in the console? When did you ever use the console at all to execute this glitch? By this same logic, picking up items is the same as using the ‘give’ command and using the teleport during A Red Letter Day is the same as ‘setpos’

This glitch is dumb. Waawaa
Fair enough, continue running what you’ve been running then. I don’t see the problem here. The split in opinion is big enough to warrant a separate category.

tl;dr
In favor, but there’s a lot of stuff that needs to be sorted out first before people start using it in proper runs.


#6

S. brings up an important point. If we accept save deletion as legitimate, should not the chapter selection screen also be allowed? As I see it, these two allowances are equivalent. Both allow the execution of a map command through the in-game menus.

And here is the strongest argument against save deletion. To reach the chapter selection screen, one must click on a menu item labeled “NEW GAME”. You might have to reach that chapter to unluck the ability to start a new game there, but this does not change the fact that you are entering a different game.

I do not know any precedent in speedrunning for allowing a new game to be started midrun, and if we accept the equivalence between the chapter selection screen and save deletion, it seems to me that save deletion is also a process which creates a new and seperate instance of the game. For this reason I am not in favor of save deletion.


#7

If there existed an ACE that would trigger “map credits”, would you ban it?


#8

No idea what an ACE is, but A) the goal is to reach the end the game, not trigger the credits. B) if there so happened to be a hidden trigger in trainstation_03 that changes the level to breen_01 and then kills Breen for whatever reason then sure, why not use it? It would just be similar to wrong warping/warp zones.

And here is the strongest argument against save deletion. To reach the chapter selection screen, one must click on a menu item labeled "NEW GAME". [...]
1) See my point about continuity in my previous post. 2) This only applies to the chapter selection issue. Save deletion is an entirely different thing, just with the same results.
it seems to me that save deletion is also a process which creates a new and seperate instance of the game.
It seems more like a 'where did all the save data go? Lets just restart the level' thing instead of a 'where did all the save data go? Lets start a new instance of the game' thing to me. Likely an intentional failsafe coded into the game by Valve.

#9
If we accept save deletion as legitimate, should not the chapter selection screen also be allowed? As I see it, these two allowances are equivalent. Both allow the execution of a map command through the in-game menus.

So my counterpoint to this is, that clicking new game, and selecting anything other than Point Insertion, would fall under New Game Plus.

Let me explain,

When you first play Half-Life 2, assuming you just bought it off of Steam, or just installed ghosting mod, hitting New Game only allows you to click Point Insertion, the other options are greyed out. However, once you’ve gotten to the chapters/beaten them, they then become possible to go to immediately through the main menu. So, if we add some (more) clarity to the run, similar to how we have (no scripts), by having it be New Game, you’re still restricted to having to get to a map first by playing the game. Hitting New Game as soon as the timer starts and clicking Dark Energy would be New Game Plus.


#10

I don’t think they are different at all, they are both intended and work the same way. The game restarts the map and uses the premade save.
One is through the chapter select or map command and the other through an intended fail-safe, but they both create a new game and therefore completely kill the continuation of the run.

You could possibly label save deletion as ‘newgame+’ since you use a premade save that wasn’t made that run.

This would be ‘doing a speedrun of the Dark Energy chapter’. Newgame+ runs still complete the game from start to finish but with things that were not unlocked that run.


#11

Pro: possible on new game without any keybinding required
Con: timing of menu fiddling needed (it would be interesting to see how fast this can be done with some scripting)

I don’t really get the chapter selection thing. New chapters only unlock when you reach them. The only reason they are unlocked when you boot up a game now is because you completed the game before.

I don’t mind the continuity loss, many other games also lose continuity in their speedruns.


#12

ACE stands for arbitrary code execution. My point was that if you had some sort of glitch to take you straight to “game end” condition, (assuming this end condition is map credits for this case), you wouldn’t care if it worked by triggering the same routine as entering “map credits” into console would? Then I don’t see any problem with save deletion having the same effect as “map othermapname”.


#13

I come from a (gold)source game that has many tricks involving saving and loading to skip to the end of the game, without this I couldn’t even reach the Sleeper’s Cavern.

It makes no sense to exclude this trick if cl_showpos is allowed ingame, seeing as you can only get that through the console. If cl_showpos is allowed, why not just allow changelevel command?

Leave this trick in because it can be done without console and is more legitimate than knowing your position for frame perfect tricks. None of this matters though because only real 1 person runs HL2 anymore and that is its most prominent place.

edit: fixed formatting
Don’t fuck with stupid fonts and colors. First warning.


#14

I still stick with my input from months ago of making it its own category, but what the fuck do I know.

Do what you want.


#15

I mean, you can still run any% no save deletion, but it should probably be labeled as such.


#16

I don’t think it’s appropriate to create a poll here. For people outside of the HL2/Portal(?) communities it’s fair for them to voice their opinions but allowing them to vote on something that doesn’t affect them doesn’t really make sense and has lead to unrepresentative decisions in the past. I’d suggest using some other method that’s more internal.

EDIT: As a suggestion, in the past for votes concerning the HL community I went through the leaderboards and dropped a PM somewhere to each active player and also did this for my contact lists.

Also like Woobly said, it’s better to label a category that arbitrarily excludes a glitch as ‘(No )’ instead of vice versa. Otherwise the Any% label (or whatever you want to call it) that’s supposed to mean anything goes isn’t really true to it’s name.


#17

For the ACE question, I should point out the leaderboards for Super Mario World are under 2 minutes due to a credits wrap glitch

Also Wario Ware games and the Pokemon yellow tas literally have the game being reset

As far as I’m concerned. you start a new game, and don’t leave it until completion. It’s legit in my opinion (and I’m not saying that because I might have discovered it)


#18

It should also be noted that the smw leaderboards have credits warp as a separate category.

I agree with gocnak on this one. Save deletion should be allowed, but in its own category since it is a metagame trick, i.e. it takes place outside of normal gameplay. Save deletion should be allowed in any% and from now on and runs without it should be called “no save deletion”, the same way you can run “no scripts”.


#19
You could possibly label save deletion as 'newgame+' since you use a premade save that wasn't made that run.
Except you did make the save during the run, then deleted it, and triggered the game's failsafe. It's like calling a run new game+ because modeling the shotgun and coding its ability to shoot wasn't included within the timing.
but they both create a new game
I disagree. Save deletion doesn't create a new game. It is more like the opposite. The save data is gone/corrupted/whatever, and the map being restarted is the game's best attempt to actually CONTINUE the playsession; the only other option being to dump the player back in the main menu with a prompt saying "failed to read savefile, you can't continue playing."
I don't really get the chapter selection thing. New chapters only unlock when you reach them. The only reason they are unlocked when you boot up a game now is because you completed the game before.
Exactly this, if everyone pretends these work like they do on first playthroughs, everything is fine. Just don't use them when you're not supposed to have them unlocked yet.
ACE stands for arbitrary code execution. My point was that if you had some sort of glitch to take you straight to "game end" condition, (assuming this end condition is map credits for this case), you wouldn't care if it worked by triggering the same routine as entering "map credits" into console would? Then I don't see any problem with save deletion having the same effect as "map othermapname".
As long as the console remains unused, then yeah I dont see why it wouldn't be allowed for a true-any% category.
The annoying blue post mentioning cl_showpos
I agree. I would be completely fine with disallowing cl_showpos too, but I use it in Portal 2 coop runs so I'm kinda hypocrite I guess. (although I would have no trouble with it if I had to stop using it.)
Last two posts on page 1 by Gocnak and Woobly
Completely agree. We'd still need to define a ruleset for the 'beat the game with SD' though.
PJC's post about the poll
Also, it's not as black and white as the poll suggests.
i.e. it takes place outside of normal gameplay
IMO deleting a save is just as metagame as making one. But I'm not here to complain about saveload clipping.

#20

so getting yourself stuck in a prop and slowly descending below the level’s boundaries is still inside of normal gameplay?