QUOTE (Max)I[muS-X,Mar 28 2006, 03:26 AM]I’m also pretty freakin’ confident in my fellow runners, and since our skills are pretty closely matched I’d have to say no for them too. You have to understand that we’ve been running this game since last year (some of us a little more), and after hundreds and hundreds of tries you tend to get better.Max, I must ask:Starting out as early as 4:29 when Gordon grabs a can o’ paint and, well, you know… I couldn’t help but start to seriously wonder:just how possibly embarassing are these tricks/exploits to Valve?Did they know about these?I thought rocket jumping was interesting starting with Quake (there’s been debate as to whether Id knew of this trick, which I thought was obvious that had to know…), but I do have a little trouble being clear if Valve realized you could do a Peter Pan all over the damn place with a can o’ paint?I’m into racing sims, and I can tell you, if sim racers found these kind of physics exploits in these sims, the devs would surely be thoroughly embarrassed…So, what’s Valve response? Some of the tricks/exploits look absolutely intentional, to add fun for the speedruners…But I am still not buying the Peter Pan trick…That just seems like a physics boo-boo to me…Either way, after HL2 had already been out 16 months, this speedrun was the first time I ever knew about the Peter Pan trick…And, lastly, how do you guys feel about the potential of HL2DAS runs? (Half-Life 2 Done As Intended)Oops, finally: Is there actually any room for improvement in this run?Thanks for your time, and I thoroughly enjoy your work!(I haven’t been to the theater in 15 months, I haven’t watched a DVD or film in so long, but I have watched this AVI over and over for three days now! What a hoot!)
There’s room for improvement, but it really depends how practical it is. Some maps had very random parts, or like 5 hard parts, so it was inevitable that one of the hard parts would not be done perfectly. Really, maybe a couple seconds on a few scattered maps. One I can think of off hand is suga (I think?) orb-jumps up the “elevator” shaft in the citadel. It takes him a couple seconds to set up, but the jump itself is so damn hard we had to compromise it as the best we could get. If we spent more days working on it, it could be better, but we didn’t see it as practical. I think there were a couple maps like this.
Pincus: Played UT1 online competitively and CS/CSS/Q4 casually, no HL2DM though. I would have been more interested if it wasn’t for the gravgun. The whole picking stuff up and throwing it at people just isn’t appealing to me for deathmatch etc. Plus the nerfed bhopping, the funnest part of HL2!Tolyngee: I’m not sure what Valve’s stance on the tricks in the run are; whether they find it funny or embaressing I can’t say for sure. I don’t know if bhopping in single player was intentional, although it might be, but even if so you must remember most glitches/tricks in speedruns are very much programming oversights, and these are used in speedruns pretty regularly. I don’t think they will be too worried about it, especially since they have stated they enjoyed previous glitch raping runs of their other games in the past (HL1 for example).HL2DAS, hmm, eh, I’m not so much into it. After all, if it was really done as intended, anyone could just record the first time they play the game and that would be that. Let alone the fact that Valve INTENDED for the game to be around 36 hours long, and that’s not much of a speedrun :PIf you just meant no flying, I’m sure it would have it’s audience, but we’ve run this game to death, so I don’t know if any of us would be interested in running it. We did try and minimize the flying though, and in some points I actually think the flying looked good.As for room for improvement, I’m sure there is. There is of course room for a second or two on most maps (although some I think you would have to try for a long long time to beat). This includes maps we got very good but not cyborg perfect, maps we made pretty visible mistakes on but were too difficult/time consuming to keep attempting, and maps where there were possible alternatives to save chunks of time. By chunks I mean ~5-10s or so, using tricks discovered later in the run, or just avoiding oversights.Then there are the yet undiscovered tricks, and I would be pretty foolish to assume there isn’t any. If someone could find a way to get those darn NPC’s to just shut up they could save a ton of time from that alone.Thanks for the compliments also, and I hope I answered your questions sufficiently 
My favorite parts (sorry guys I forget who did what):I like when NPCs talk about how fast we did something, or we finish before their speech is done. Like in black mesa east, she’s like “eli will be amazed you got here so quickly!” Then in the one map I did the guy is doing his speech and I get behind him as he says, I’ll catch up with you later 
Then of course, breen at the end is dead while finishing up his speech :lol:Trick parts:Coast, sandtraps, nova prospeckt, C17, citadel!I just love how fast people got on the highways.I love nova prospeckt, where the box is put under the button and hit from underneath, then the GGjump over the forcefield. I rejoined right after that map and I haden’t even watched it until the final o.o The quick firefights are always interesting.I like any big jump parts; rollermine, nade-ggjump on follow freeman, jump off the tire in front of the museum, etc. Lots of entertainment.One thing I hate about this that I just noticed, is how much standing around we do. Especially when leaving the prison, we go through a couple alyx speeches, then the turret segment that’s like 8 minutes long, then standing around the labs, and listening to breen talk. Those kind of kill the run for me as I’ve seen them 1000000 times. I just fast forward, even with the teleporting and all.I think if we subtracted NPC speeches the run would be like 50 minutes.
I think that we probably could do more damage boosts with grenades at maximus did in the citadels. At long maps like the coast a slight increase in speed will result in a reasonable amount of seconds saved.
The only problem is we don’t have any health in coast. If you remember we barely made it through there without dying as it was. In the later levels there were plenty of health “depots”.
QUOTE And, lastly, how do you guys feel about the potential of HL2DAS runs? (Half-Life 2 Done As Intended)sounds pretty boring to me! We can all play games as they were intended. Ok, you can get better and better at killing the combine and more efficient etc. But all of these “favourite parts” weren’t intended as far as I know.I hadn’t heard about the “done as intended” run until just now. But if there is a team trying to do it, it would be fun to issue a challenge to them and see who can do it “as intended” the quickest :lol: .
just finished watching (after 4 days of non-stop downloading with 3-20 KB/s the HQ version :D).it was pure AWESOMENESS!! $$favorite moments: too many to have the patience to write it here :Dthanks a lot guys for this great effort (thanks for mentioning me in the credits too… i’m not worthy! )edit: when i was watching it, i was remembering:- the period of time in which the demos were recorded… “hey look… the coast! last summer… wow!” etc. :)- how i was imagining back when the project was barely passing phase 1 about these glorious moments right now
The flying thing was SO EASY to do. That one day a long time ago, when i posted on hl2world under the alias Transgenic (which i still use for non-gaming related usernames), I told them how i learned how to fly easily. They stated they had new about this already from the beta (yeah, okay, then why hadnt it been publicized? flying is pretty major sounding to me), but the way i did it, i accidently picked up a board and jumped up some steps. Then i realized i had jumped on the board and not the steps. I was like “WAAAA???”. i tested it futher just by jumping more. After i touched the ceiling, i realized you can fly. So i tested various objects, and back then, i thought that the wood pallets were best. They still are great, but the people here at hl2dq proved that alot of other objects are amazing to use. I think that making a “as intended” run is fine, but where do you draw the line for what glitches you exploit? The Flying glitch is VERY EASY to do that any child could have figured it out.
Before this goes any further:My “as-intended” comment was supposed to just get a laugh from Max, along with a crack along the lines of "who are you to judge that HL2DQ isn’t HL2AI? ""and anyway, if you want to see it as intended, play it yourself"Sorry that my comment was in any way taken as anything more than just a crack intended to be cracked back at.For the record: I don’t find anything in HL2DQ to be cheating, so saying it wasn’t intended to be played this way would be obtuse on my part.That said, the Peter Pan exploit is (AFAIK) a unique exploit only to HL2.For Valve touting source as being well ahead of its time in the physics department, sorry, but this Peter Pan exploit is just absurd to me.This exploit reminds me of an old racing sim from ten yrs ago. It was hyped and people drooled in anticipation of it. Then it was released. Not sure how this wasn’t caught in QA, but AI cars had the tendency on parts of track that crossed over one another to “leap” to the track below. This definetely cut the track and lap times. (obviously, on an absolute figure-eight config track, this could mean AI cars sometimes only did half a lap to complete a lap…)Needless to say, the game quickly crashed and burned… I think it took longer to install the game than it did to decide to remove it…if this glitch ever got fixed, I am not aware of it…While not a parallel at all to Source, I must say, in my opinion, if I was a programmer of Source, I would be upset that we allowed the Peter Pan exploit into the engine.Unless it was intentional. But I have my doubts.the other exploits/glitches are just all about hitting certain key combinations at the right time and in succession and doing it rapidly and repeatedly, if I am not mistaken. That stuff can just happen. My understanding is there is actually at least a small amt of skill involved in getting all of that hopping and running done to its max potential…(for instance, how fast he ran around and jumped in Coast… That should have been exploited in the previous two runs of Hl2 already in my opinion… It took practice/skill to perfect it into what we see in this run)Like I said, the run is thoroughly amusing and I enjoy it…But, as I said, there’s a reason that the Peter Pan exploit is (AFAIK) a unique glitch to one game…Or, in short: all other glitches can be explained away by programmers, but one… (this assumes all were oversights to some extent…)Anyway, what I suggest to games devs in the future is: hire these damn speedrunners in the future to test your games and find your exploits, then do with that info what you wish. I think it could help make HL3 an even more unique product.To be honest, I don’t know really where I was going with this post. So, be gentle…But, yeah, sorry to say, not trying to offend anyone, but I guess the Peter Pan exploit really does upset me for some reason…But, then again, if they really wished, they’d have invisible barriers at places that only disappear when a certain sequence of events have completed. To many spots were skipped with old 1996 rocketjump-style exploits for Valve to not know someone would have fun and do it there… And they left it open for people to have fun there, IMHO…But, yup, the Peter Pan just isn’t the same style of exploit as all the others in my book…It just your character having the capability to interact in this virtual world in a way that just doesn’t make any sense…The “for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction” rule of physics (actually, isn’t that the first rule???) was overlooked…Except for the ability to change direction in mid-air (which could be semi-explained away, to be honest… but still isn’t something I like… it took me a while to realize I could do that, as I never tried, as it didn’t make sense…), I still consider the Peter Pan as a physics engine quirk, rather than an exploit.I’d rather not see it in HL3…Someone mentioned “a child could have figured it out.” Maybe that’s why I never see these exploits coming, as I am grounded in how physics work in the real world, and am anticipating that is what I will find in these FPSs… Grabbing a can o’ paint and going Peter Pan through the game just never ever crossed my mind…If I bored anyone here, I apologize, obviously I had too much free time tonight…If this post upsets any of the speedrunners, that in no way was my intention…Your speedrun is legit, amusing and thoroughly entertaining. But I see Source differently now…Actually, if anyone is still reading, would someone care to enlighten me and post some other “absurd” exploits in games? Prior to this speedrun, bunnyhopping/rocketjumping were about the only exploits I had ever heard of…(though seeing that you can somehow end up seemingly outside of the map in Halo without no-clipping was interesting…)
Hehe, oh there’s TONS of glitches and tricks like that in other games, as well as in this game. For example, it isn’t just the flying that was a complete programming oversight.For one, although it might be argued that the bhopping was intentional (they’ve seen Quake and HL1 strafejumping I’m sure, and might have implemented it on purpose), it doesn’t necessarily mean that was the case. Also, if you read the Tricks text, there’s tons of stuff in there that isn’t practical in the real world. Enterclipping, gravflying, brute acceleration, brute launching, freefalling, super turbo up, and teleporting are all totally unexpected glitches, right on par with flying. You probably have more animosity towards flying because the potential for speedrunning is through the roof, maybe too much potential, as you can go anywhere. Luckily, we managed to keep this to a minimum and find FASTER ways to get to high places when we could.Even impact boosting (not called rocketjumping in this case because it can be done with any sort of explosion, not just rockets. quake was pretty limited in what explosions it could use) is not physically accurate if you wanted to be picky :PAs for other games, there are way too many to mention. You should go to www.speeddemosarchive.com and read some of the threads of games currently being run, or maybe watch a few if you’re interested. The stuff they do to every one of the good runs have lots of big glitches and sequence breaks. The current Ocarina of Time thread, as well as the Half Life 1 Tricks thread, come to mind.P.S. I’m not offended at all by ANY of your posts, so don’t worry about that. One thing I have to mention is your posting style, though. Usually you hear about people needing to use more paragraphs, but for you I think it’s the opposite. Try to keep your sentences together when they’re related so it’s a bit more concise.
Okay, I just tried to post a longer comment, but i hit “add reply”, and it didnt load the page, so it lost all of what i said. Short Version: You can do similar ‘flying’ things in Painkiller, and i dont know if they know on SDA. Any game in the future that has objects will probably have similar exploits as HL2 flying. Valve is known for making ‘revolutionary’ games. This game will not be the last time this glitch is seen.
QUOTE But, then again, if they really wished, they’d have invisible barriers at places that only disappear when a certain sequence of events have completed. To many spots were skipped with old 1996 rocketjump-style exploits for Valve to not know someone would have fun and do it there… And they left it open for people to have fun there, IMHO…They do have invisible barriers, but they made them so high that you cant get over them by stacking objects in the surrounding area. I guess they have to totally close off the maps in episode one so the only way you can get into a new area is through a door or the indended route. The mappers at valve must get annoyed by this, they already have tonnes and tonnes of triggers and invisible brushes in the maps to make them work the way they want. I guess its hard to foresee everything a player can do.
lol @ Max, telling him to use less paragraph.As for the exploits, half of them would not have been found / useable if it was not for AHK, which I guess is why somepeople are not happy with the legitimacy (sorry if i spelt it wrong max 
) of the run.
All the flying tricks were found and used before AHK thanks to Loner and his joystick stomping, except for wallclimbing, but that was found by me and is the same thing.The only exploits that NEED the script is brute acceleration, and maybe brute launching and gravity flying, none of which we used. It makes the other tricks easier to manage, cleaner, and evens the score vs people with the kind of setups mentioned above, but not necessary just to be done. Without AHK the same tricks and shortcuts would be used, just botchier versions.