I’ve devised a plan. I went through the leaderboards and created a list of current issues:
[ul][li]Difficulty - Should there be both Easy and Hard categories, just one of them or should they be merged?[/li]
[li]Version - Should there be both WON and Steam categories, just one of them or should they be merged?[/li]
[li]FPS - Should fps_max be allowed at all? If yes, should it be allowed mid-run? If not, should intentionally lagging the game via other means be allowed?[/li]
[li]“Scripts” category - What should be the limitations? What should it be called?[/li]
[li]“No RTA tricks rule” in Half-Life + Blue Shift - Should it be removed? Should people be allowed the freedom of RTA-based routes regardless if it’s faster or not?[/li]
[li]wait - Should wait be allowed?[/li]
[li]Is there anything else you’d like to bring up?[/li][/ul]
Please discuss these, preferably quoting each question and then adding your response underneath. If there is lack of discussion or conclusion I will make a poll/survey, post it here, and then we’ll say that anyone with a time on the leaderboards or anyone who is clearly intending to submit a time but is waiting for changes (such as BitRain) will get a vote that counts.
Difficulties, I would keep them all in the same category for ease but some people may oppose this for understandable reasons, like, getting a WR on easy is “cheap” or whatever.
**Versions, **Preferably merge the two into the same category, otherwise we’d have a hard and easy category for each version, which means 6 sub categories, which is kinda excessive in my opinion, there aren’t any major difference between the versions either if I’m not wrong.
**FPS, **You mean like lowering the FPS to make NPCs turn faster or having the max framerate be something over 100? I really enjoy playing HL at over 100fps but if that’s not what you’re trying to say then I’d say allow it, NPCs turn hella slow at 100fps.
**Scripts category, **anything that doesn’t involve moving the player in any direction except jumping? ie, +bxt_tas_autojump, +bxt_tas_ducktap, usespam, object boost (because it’s actually hard if you want to get a really good boost, not just a moderately fast one). Scripts% or just (Scripted), doesn’t really matter.
No RTA tricks rule, people should have the freedom to use whatever routes they want.
Waits, I’m kinda following what quadrazid did in his HL scripted wr, he used a triggerdelay, which is a script, which involves waits, so I don’t see why it shouldn’t be allowed.
I can’t remember if it’s included in BXT or not, but what about the grenade timer UI thing? Would allowing that be a pushing it a bit? Also, showing your position, which would be pretty useful for doing the test chamber skip by object boosting with the sample cart thing.
**Difficulty - **You could say that difficulty is an “in-game” category, so perhaps there should be both. I don’t think having just one of them (Easy being the fastest) will work anyway because there’s already a Hard category with 41 people; I also don’t think merging the two will work because of that.
Version - In HL, the difference between WON and Steam in SS is very small, therefore merging them may be more suitable; as for RTA, I haven’t seen any proof of it being faster than SS in WON meaning that Steam is by far the optimal version here, so once again merging would make sense. The only problem is that if you want to have both SS and RTA categories with both versions allowed, it wouldn’t really make sense to have the WON runs with saveloads in the SS category, so people might be unhappy with their runs being moved to a category of a route they didn’t intend to run.
In BS, the difference between WON and Steam is probably very small also, therefore merging them would probably be suitable, even though I’m confident Steam is faster so everyone would probably continue to run it as they’ve already been doing so. As for RTA, I’m not sure if it would be faster but the question of allowing people the freedom of it anyway is something else, which I’ve answered further down.
**FPS - **If fps_max is not allowed whatsoever, the default value for WON DLLs would have to be 72 as that’s what it is in the original client. According to YaLTeR (iirc), the default value in latest Steam is 100. Due to this, WON would probably be faster everywhere which would rule out Steam and eradicate version confusion. However, right now I can’t think of any reason why we shouldn’t set fps_max to 100 (99.5) *before *the run considering the hard cap in the WON client.
EDIT: Turns out 72fps is an unstable value on the WON client (slowdown on player movement), whereas in latest Steam client there’s the FPS physics fix so the value is stable there. This means that using 72fps on latest Steam client with WON DLLs wouldn’t be legit, but YaLTeR has said that it’s possible to implement a feature in BXT which would patch out the physics fix which means that we’d be able to continue using Steam client with WON DLLs legitimately if 72fps is decided on as the set value.
As for mid-run, if you don’t allow it but you do allow intentionally lagging the game via other means, the scenarios I listed here would apply. If you don’t allow intentional lagging, you won’t be allowed to ALT+TAB (it drops the fps significantly). In the case of a global 100FPS limit being applied and Steam DLLs being rendered useless, this would actually make sense because the original WON client didn’t allow you to ALT+TAB without the game pausing itself, meaning intentional lagging via ALT+TAB would be illegit anyway. There’s only really one technical downside of not allowing FPS dropping which is unintentional lag, but this probably isn’t going to be considered an issue. Therefore in my opinion, a global 100FPS value should apply other than in Blue Shift where people would have to use the original WON client anyway (DLLs not compatible) so the limit is going to be 72FPS there (shoutouts to making Blue Shift even more of a bad game to run lmao). For these reasons I don’t think fps_max is justifiable to be changed mid-run.
The remaining issue here is the grandfathering. There’s roughly 50 people on the leaderboards, many of which would probably not take the change very well if their runs were now deemed illegit. I suppose the only solution is to create an “old rules” category.
**“Scripts” category - **Already said what I think in earlier post.
**“No RTA tricks rule in HL/BS” - **This was only really implemented because Cubeface beat kukkye’s HL SS WR with an RTA-exclusive strat (which is now obsoleted by a non-RTA-exclusive strat), so there was alot of controversy and the rule was added on a whim to preserve the SS route. Even though I agreed with it at the time, I don’t really think it makes much sense now. If RTA is faster by a small amount, then just merge SS and RTA together because there’s really no point going for SS in this case other than for some sort of miscellaneous challenge (same case with Portal).
Even if RTA is not faster, in my opinion it’s still unnecessary to have a “no RTA tricks” rule because it just unnecessarily limits the freedom of routing and causes confusion. It doesn’t provide any benefit.
**wait - **This was a grey area thing, it was allowed in segmented runs/TASes and it isn’t a script so we clarified that it’s allowed in SS/RTA. Having thought about it though, I can’t think of any justification for allowing it whatsoever in any type of run.
The grenade timer isn’t in BXT, but third party HUD features is probably something that should be brought up. The only issue is that if any third party HUD features are banned, it’s hard to enforce without only allowing VoDs to be submitted.
Difficulty: They should be merged. I think so because I want a “Half-Life Any%” category where the goal is to complete the game as fast as possible by any reasonable means.
Version: Same as previous.
“No RTA tricks rule”: No. I think so because I want a “Half-Life Any%” category where the goal is to complete the game as fast as possible by any reasonable means.
FPS: FPS change mid-run should be allowed in any version. WON version limited to 100 fps, Steam (Latest) unlimited. No alt-tabbing (comparable to cartridge tilting?). This because it makes the run more interesting.
“Scripts” category: “Limited (low?) tool/script assistance”. Only BXT autojump and ducktap, spam scripts for +use and wait and object boost scripts should be allowed. Object boost scripts should only contain wait, +use, -use, +jump/+duck and -jump/-duck.
wait: Should be allowed. It’s interesting.
anything else:
Multi-Skill would make even more sense if the categories were already merged.
No kind of customesation allowed for the purpose of gaining an advantage, ie edited sound files, spray logos.
What about force_centerview, cl_pitchup/down, r_drawentities, s_show (shows what sound files are being played) and play “directory/soundfile.wav”?
Maybe, instead of making a blacklist/whitelist thing, can we just have all the current commands being used in runs be listed as “You may not use any but these commands for the purpose of gaining an advantage. If you know a command that you think should be allowed/disallowed then discuss it at <insert speedrun.com forum/sourceruns forum thread>”
The commands I listed above and weapon_ commands, fps_max and wait are the only console-exclusive commands that have been used in RTA runs to gain an advanatage, to my knowledge.
Lol, not even remotely related. But I guess it is a form of “external game manipulation”. But barely.
There’s not really any point in banning alt+tabbing if you allow FPS to be changed mid-run.
I had a similar idea, but instead of saying “all commands used already are allowed until disputed (most people wouldn’t dispute them anyway)” (which isn’t a good basis considering a lot of them haven’t undergone proper community consultation), just list all the notable commands/variables that could prove useful and rule out all the obvious ones (map, notarget etc), then either discuss or vote on the remaining. If other commands/variables that aren’t listed are found to be useful, make a rule that says you have to consult the community about it first before using it.
EDIT: Made a list of notable commands/variables that would be “useful” for speedrunning: Obvious Don't Allow: * career* map* notarget* edgefriction* host_fra - Pastebin.com
the commands +right , +left are useful, would they be allowed? if scripted category would ever exist
Following Maxam’s prompt in the other thread:
Can I go ahead and add the Easy category to the leaderboard as well as remove the “no RTA tricks” rule? These are two things that don’t seem to have any negative effect and can be easily implemented straight away. I guess I can implement them at the end of this week if nobody has any objections by then.
About fps_max; I think I may have found a reason to justify allowing it. Due to the latest WON version of Blue Shift being very old, it’s DLLs aren’t compatible with the later clients. So, I decided to install my CD copy of Blue Shift and see how the original client runs… it’s basically unplayable at this point. What I mean is that ever since I upgraded my GPU it’s laggy as heck, but I’m definitely not the only one that has reported instability in this engine so I’m assuming that it just doesn’t go well with modern hardware. With the latest Steam version also defaulting to 72 (Half-Life is the only exception, defaulting to 100), your choice is that you either play a highly unstable version or you play a highly sub-optimal version.
EDIT: Also, found out force_centerview actually isn’t console-exclusive (check options for “Look straight ahead”), so that’s one to knock off the list.
Yeah, go ahead and add it before things get overly complicated with rules.
I’m pretty certain you could just add Easy category to the leaderboard if you label it Half-Life Any% Easy. There might be some objections labeling it as Half-Life any% (which I think it should be called). The only reason to not remove the “no RTA tricks” rule is to keep the current Hard category route as it is.
The single-segment route is more a “miscellaneous challenge” as PJC said, so why not rename it to something like Half-Life any% SS. Because, there are people who don’t want the current category changed? Like, could we remove the “NO SS” thing and not accept runs that are not SS, I mean, people say that my route is RTA route because I will “never be able to do it all in a run” and it would be lame if I got wr NO SS - although my ultimate goal is SS.
For now I’ll just call it Easy like the Hard category, I don’t think Any% is necessary considering we don’t have percentages in HL at the moment.
I also don’t think there’s much point in giving SS it’s own category considering we don’t even have confirmation of how much (if at all) faster RTA is, and even if we do know it’s not likely to be by much. It would be like creating a SS category in Portal Inbounds; it’s just not worth it. I find the biggest problem with not allowing RTA-exclusive stuff is that it’s hard to enforce when we already allow quicksaves, meaning that people (this has happened before) can accidentally dupe ammo without knowing and then it becomes a mess to decide whether their run is legit or not over a rule that is kind of silly anyway.
There is no % counter in HL so just call it Easy. Just like the current category is just “Hard”. I guess the right term would be “Easy Run” or “Beat the game, Easy” but might as well keep it short and sweet.
You usually don’t want to clutter the leaderboards with very similar categories. Currently you can select the leaderboards to only show “SS” or “No SS” to see what is the fastest run in both. Many boards use this feature to separate Emu runs form original hardware instead of making different categories.
And imo it’s working fine.
edit: basically what PJC said.
just allow scripts like duckrolling and bxt_autojump. people can live with turning around to gauss boost, portal runners have to do it the whole time 8)
From Speedrunslive: “Any%: A run with no additional completion requirements; anything goes. The “default” category for speedrunning a game. The term comes from the old school Metroid speedrunning community. Metroid has a percentage counter, while other games may not, but the term stuck around.”
Shouldn’t there be a category where “anything goes”? Like we are setting a requirement that we must play on Easy difficulty. I’m pretty sure there’s a big difference between a run playing on Easy difficulty using quicksaves/RTA strats and a run where quicksaves are not allowed and is played on Hard difficulty. The game is getting more and more optimized so even if the difference may not seem so big, a 10-20 second difference is huge at the highest level.
The coolest thing would be to have “Half-Life any%” where any version is allowed and any difficulty is allowed. This focuses on how fast Half-Life can be beaten in the fastest way and not on how fast a specific version with a specific difficulty can be beaten. This would cause cool inter competition and then later, if desired, we could have seperate categories for intra competition. Having Half-Life any% is the only way to not clutter the leaderboards with like 10 different categories (including medium skill/multi-skill). We’re mostly thinking of full game runs but imagine having all these different categories for all the Individual Chapters. Inter competition between versions/difficulties would also be super cool for Individual Chapters.
Thank god, someone actually making sense. Who created the rules for Half-Life? Anyway, all of what he said makes sense because that’s how speedrunning works. Completing the game as fast as humanly possible in any way necessary without cheating. The concept of speedrunning “legitimately” is doing the entire run in a way that could theoretically be done on console, (no developer console commands required) while still maintaining balance with the desires of the community. This is why scripts for duckrolling and autojump are allowed, along with the mouse wheel. It’s 100% possible to do without hardware and software assistance, but it’s annoying and it’s not enjoyable to run the game. So that being said, on a console you can choose which difficulty you want. Games with different difficulties shouldn’t be separated into different speedrunning categories. They should be one category, and the runners should find the fastest one. It’s a very simple concept and I don’t understand why the Half-Life community is struggling with it AT ALL.
is that a good meme 8)
SRL are not a global authority on what communities should name their categories, nor are they trying to be. The glossary simply lists common terms used within speedrunning to provide knowledge to beginners who might not be familiar.
A 10-20 second difference is hardly justifiable; heck, RTA vs SS in Opposing Force is borderline justifiable with there being roughly only a minute and a half difference between the two realistically. Would it be sensible, for example, to create 2 full-game TASes where one is done on Easy difficulty and one on Hard? It would be a waste of time and effort, they’d be virtually the same, and this would be the case for realtime runs also. The only reason I argue to keep the Hard category is to serve as a legacy for the 42 submissions that are already there.
What justification is there for keeping the “no RTA tricks” rule in any category, really? I don’t think there’s even a single person that abides by the rule that truly agrees with it. Continuing to keep this rule in place anywhere is backwards-thinking and would be a refusal to adjust to modern standards.
Half-Life 2 allows all difficulties and everybody runs on Easy because it’s pointless to run on Hard. Half-Life 2 *could *also have a category where all versions are allowed, but everybody would run New Engine because it’s currently the fastest. What if Old Engine was proven to be faster? You’d have a bunch of people still wanting to run New Engine knowing it would be slower but because they find it more fun, so this is why the two are split in the first place.
In HL’s case, Steam is considerably faster RTA-wise, so a bunch of people are still going to want to run WON because they find it more fun. Therefore, clearly the best thing to do is to just completely get rid of the whole RTA vs SS categorization stuff, categorize by version (1 for Steam and 1 for WON) instead, then do as Elgu suggested, which is to use the variable label system to sort between RTA and SS runs because there really isn’t any point in cluttering the leaderboards with categories that are virtually no different from each other.
Scripts have never been allowed in single sitting runs whilst the leaderboards have been up.
This logic implies that, for example, Quake should not have Easy and Nightmare categories, despite them being vastly different and therefore being justifiable as their own categories. That being said, Half-Life does not have vastly different difficulties and therefore do not deserve their own categories.
I agree. So Half-Life any% (WON), Half-Life any% Hard (WON), Half-Life any% (Steam), Half-Life any% SS (Steam).
The only justification for no RTA strats is to keep the run SS (and then there is personal preference, hurr durr I don’t want to do such things because I don’t like the idea of it). The original idea with SS were probably to complete the game without loading any saves (no dying, no quick loading).
Edit: You don’t want a “NO SS” run to be top 1 in the Single Segment category, what would be the point of having a SS category even? If you get a “NO SS” run it would only fit in the Half-Life any% (WON) category. Like I don’t even see the point of a SS (WON) category to begin with as it would be the exact same as the other category except for no RTA exclusive strats, which is a very small deal.
You could also add Steam/WON as a variable like SS/No SS.
It used to be not needed since no one did runs on steam dll’s. (I know you did Maxam but you switched to WON)
But yea, a separate category might do as well since the difference is pretty big. But then again you should courage ppl to try and run on the fastest version instead of separating them. (imo)
Yeah, that’s basically what I was saying Maxam. Also agreeing with Elgu about the variable thing.
If I understand Elgu right, then the categories would be merged but the runner would submit which version of the game the run was made in. That’s what I’ve wanted throughout this thread. But PJC said that Steam RTA is much faster so there should be categories seperated Steam/WON wise. That is true, for full game runs atleast.
“But yea, a separate category might do as well since the difference is pretty big. But then again you should courage ppl to try and run on the fastest version instead of separating them. (imo)”
But when the version is more popular, the top competitors would have to play on this version. For now it would be cool to merge them like this but it would have to be seperated at a later point, I think (and this might cause problems).
off-topic: is there an effective way to use the quote feature? It’s tedious to click “Quote” and then select and remove the stuff you don’t want to quote.