# Should we allow Save Deletion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Half-Life 2\ **Created:** [July 12, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668 "2015-07-12T12:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PJC](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/a587f6/32.png) [@PJC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/PJC)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 9:13am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/21 "2015-07-13T09:13:37Z")
> [@S.](#): > > > The annoying blue post mentioning cl\_showpos > > I agree. I would be completely fine with disallowing cl\_showpos too, but I use it in Portal 2 coop runs so I'm kinda hypocrite I guess. (although I would have no trouble with it if I had to stop using it.) I don’t know what the rules are on evidence of runs on the leaderboards (I’m looking at the ‘Show rules’ dropdown now, it’s empty?), but if you allow demos to be submitted as sufficient evidence then you can’t really ban cl\_showpos, or for that matter any other HUD-based/clientside(?) settings unless you have some sort of demo analyzer that shows every setting/command used. So in order to enforce that, everyone would have to submit local recordings or stream VoDs. Anyway, it’s off-topic and probably deserves it’s own separate discussion if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![UnrealCanine](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/u/cc9497/32.png) [@UnrealCanine](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/UnrealCanine)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/22 "2015-07-13T11:47:01Z")
> [@lakitu64](#): > > > [@UnrealCanine](#): > > > > I should point out the leaderboards for Super Mario World are under 2 minutes due to a credits wrap glitch > > It should also be noted that the smw leaderboards have credits warp as a separate category. Sorry, but the credits wrap runs are listed as Any% [http://www.speedrun.com/smw](http://www.speedrun.com/smw) ---
**Author:** ![Littlesackninja](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/cc9497/32.png) [@Littlesackninja](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Littlesackninja)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/23 "2015-07-13T11:47:24Z")
I agree with Gocnak, Allow it but only in a separate category. It breaks the continuity of the run. Nothing you did in the run impacts it, if you are on 25hp you will now be on 100, You didn’t get the airboat, you left it behind, there is no connection between the saves other than the map. Also you didn’t make the save, valve did, If mid way through a run I give you my save for a level you just got to that wouldn’t be continuous, same with this except it is valves save. Even though you made the game load it, it requires going out of the game, and this is it’s biggest flaw, you have to edit/delete your save, out of the game, in my opinion you should only be able to run the game without tabbing out at all to edit the game in anyway, but allowed to obviously do other things, just as long as it does not impact the game. Also cl\_showpos is not protected by a cheat, but unlike ch\_createairboat, it does not edit the current session, it just gives the player more info. Edit: SMW should not be compared to hl2 or any other source game, it is a completely different scenario and credits warp does not require you editing the games files as far as I am aware. > [@anon3211469](#): > > > [@lakitu64](#): > > > > > [@UnrealCanine](#): > > > > > > I should point out the leaderboards for Super Mario World are under 2 minutes due to a credits wrap glitch > > > > It should also be noted that the smw leaderboards have credits warp as a separate category. > > I agree with gocnak on this one. Save deletion should be allowed, but in its own category since it is a metagame trick, i.e. it takes place outside of normal gameplay. Save deletion should be allowed in any% and from now on and runs without it should be called “no save deletion”, the same way you can run “no scripts”. > > so getting yourself stuck in a prop and slowly descending below the level’s boundaries is still inside of normal gameplay? Speedrunning is not normal gameplay, so why does it matter? ABH is not ‘normal’ gameplay, or any other glitches. ---
**Author:** ![Jukspa](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/j/51bf81/32.png) [@Jukspa](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Jukspa)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 12:42pm UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/24 "2015-07-13T12:42:04Z")
> [@Littlesackninja](#): > > . Nothing you did in the run impacts it, if you are on 25hp you will now be on 100, You didn’t get the airboat, you left it behind, there is no connection between the saves other than the map. Also you didn’t make the save, valve did, If mid way through a run I give you my save for a level you just got to that wouldn’t be continuous, same with this except it is valves save. Even though you made the game load it,it requires going out of the game, and this is it’s biggest flaw, you have to edit/delete your save, out of the game, in my opinion you should only be able to run the game without tabbing out at all to edit the game in anyway, but allowed to obviously do other things, just as long as it does not impact the game The premade saves thing is from a technical standpoint incorrect, there’s only a flag for “new game” in the map files and the map just restarts with that flag set. There is no premade saves. You don’t have to exit the game or alt-tab to delete a save, there is a button in the load game menu that allows you to delete saves. ---
**Author:** ![gmansoliver](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@gmansoliver](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/gmansoliver)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/25 "2015-07-13T13:33:23Z")
> [@PJC](#): > > Also like Woobly said, it’s better to label a category that arbitrarily excludes a glitch as ‘(No )’ instead of vice versa. Otherwise the Any% label (or whatever you want to call it) that’s supposed to mean anything goes isn’t really true to it’s name. I agree with Woobly and PJC as well. No matter what people think of Save Deletion from a “what is right or wrong” point of view, it is possible to do from a first play though of the game without modifying it in any way. As such, it would seem that Any% should technically include Save Deletion then. I get that some people, such as Gocnak, are opposed to using the glitch in their runs, which is perfectly fine. But regardless of what these people think, they can’t redefine what Any% means. So if they want to continue their runs without doing save glitch, that’s fine, but it isn’t Any% anymore. In a sense, this would be like trying to say that “Legacy Inbounds” Portal is the only real Inbounds category. It isn’t, which is why it has it’s own name. ---
**Author:** ![lakitu64](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/user_avatar/forums.sourceruns.org/lakitu64/32/107_2.png) [@lakitu64](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/lakitu64)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/26 "2015-07-13T13:53:56Z")
It seems a lot of people misunderstood me, so I’m going to clear things up. > [@anon3211469](#): > > so getting yourself stuck in a prop and slowly descending below the level’s boundaries is still inside of normal gameplay? Yes, in the sense that you still do it while playing the game, not on the menu. That was probably a bad use of “normal” on my part. > [@UnrealCanine](#): > > > [@lakitu64](#): > > > > > [@UnrealCanine](#): > > > > > > I should point out the leaderboards for Super Mario World are under 2 minutes due to a credits wrap glitch > > > > It should also be noted that the smw leaderboards have credits warp as a separate category. > > Sorry, but the credits wrap runs are listed as Any% > > [http://www.speedrun.com/smw](http://www.speedrun.com/smw) Yes, but isn’t that still a separate category from runs that don’t use it? Not only that, but I explicitly stated that i think save deletion should be allowed in any% and that a separate category should be created for runs that forgoe it, just like credits warp. ---
**Author:** ![Woobly](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/w/b77776/32.png) [@Woobly](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Woobly)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/27 "2015-07-13T21:13:19Z")
> So if they want to continue their runs without doing save glitch, that's fine, but it isn't Any% anymore. Well, technically, it still is any%. It’s just that it (probably) isn’t optimal an optimal run of any%, and could be in any% and any% no save deletion. Just like you could technically submit a no OoB run of Portal to any% to the leader boards, even if your strats aren’t the fastest for any%. ---
**Author:** ![SuperPcow](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@SuperPcow](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/SuperPcow)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/28 "2015-07-13T22:35:18Z")
I don’t do any HL2 speedrunning so I won’t actually vote, but I’ll post my opinion. Not in favor because it basically creates a new session for you, same as if you go to the menu and click which chapter you’d like to start on. However if it is considered legitimate then I think it should be put up into it’s own category. ---
**Author:** ![Maxam](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Maxam](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Maxam)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/29 "2015-07-14T04:09:35Z")
If I knew about this trick I would probably have used it in my runs. I would probably also have used the new chapter selection menu if all the chapters weren’t already unlocked at every start of a run. It is faster, but considered lame by some. ---
**Author:** ![Frosty](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/f475e1/32.png) [@Frosty](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Frosty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/30 "2015-07-14T05:17:26Z")
Assuming this gets allowed, how will segmented runs be timed? ---
**Author:** ![YaLTeR](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/user_avatar/forums.sourceruns.org/yalter/32/553_2.png) [@YaLTeR](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/YaLTeR)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/31 "2015-07-14T05:35:32Z")
I think it makes the most sense to allow for any% and have a “no save deletion” category. Menu should be timed. For segmented runs, capture it on video or something? Not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Woobly](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/w/b77776/32.png) [@Woobly](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Woobly)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 6:37am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/32 "2015-07-14T06:37:27Z")
Well, when you do chapter selection, you are literally selecting and starting a new game. And while save deletion has similarities to chapter selection, save deletion can only be done on the current map you’re on, but can be done on every map. Kind of like how typing give weapon\_pistol in console and picking up the pistol are similar, the method in which you actually obtain the pistol is different. While I understand that people don’t like save deletion, as yalter said, you’re still free to run without it. I just think that it should be allowed in the default run of Half-Life 2. ---
**Author:** ![Gocnak](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/user_avatar/forums.sourceruns.org/gocnak/32/23_2.png) [@Gocnak](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Gocnak)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 6:25am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/33 "2015-07-15T06:25:56Z")
Under more thought I guess I can give a more formal response. I’ll allow it in the ever-including, base “Any%” category. I was never against it really. Hell I’ll even do it in my runs from now on. A point was made that other games do even more preposterous runs than save clips and deletion, and allow it in the Any% category (an example could be Antichamber). Making a separate category would have to apply for negating the use of the glitch, as mentioned before in the thread. So the Any% WR right now is _technically_ “Any% No Save Deletion” but we can just classify it as “A Really Slow Any%” since the terms of Any% are expanding to include this glitch now, given we’re all on the same page and want to (the poll helps with that). The only thing that we need to discuss is timing. SourceSplit times the game based on in-game time, and any menuing/pausing is excluded due to the engine not counting those ticks. Save deletion requires menuing to accomplish. The two ways to provide video proof of your run is through demos or captured video (recording the demos -\> youtube or just live streaming it). The demos won’t include the menuing. So if we continue to accept demos as a valid form of timing/video proof, we won’t be including the time of the menuing in the run. As for pausing, same deal goes, since demos just put one tick in to show a pause. We abuse that fact with recording our new segmented runs with SPT to have better segment transitions. Since the output is the same for every runner doing the glitch (the save becomes deleted), and no other menu option (other than New Game and difficulty LOL) causes a different output for the run, I don’t see the problem with excluding the timing for menuing. Technically, if we start timing menuing, it can lead to people potentially losing a PB/WR due to menuing slowly due to reaction time due to bad sleep due to… As for using the “New Game” menu to do something similar, my only input is that it _ **CANNOT** _ be used for going forwards in the run. Even if they are all unlocked, if you go forwards using New Game you’re gonna be deemed an epic cheater and not taken seriously. Plus wouldn’t using that technically be New Game+? ---
**Author:** ![YaLTeR](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/user_avatar/forums.sourceruns.org/yalter/32/553_2.png) [@YaLTeR](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/YaLTeR)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 10:29am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/34 "2015-07-15T10:29:02Z")
Let’s just say when you’re using New Game pretend you have everything, that you didn’t unlock yet, locked. This way if there’s an epic glitch that unlocks everything and happens on the first map it’ll still fall legit under the rules. ---
**Author:** ![PJC](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/a587f6/32.png) [@PJC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/PJC)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/35 "2015-07-15T13:12:45Z")
Continuing to accept demos as valid proof doesn’t seem right if this glitch as well as pausing (EP2?) is allowed. It’s not just about the timing, it’s also about the footage not being displayed. Even if you solve the timing problem it wouldn’t really make sense to then not display the part where you pause or use the menu, A. because to the uneducated they won’t know what’s going on (kinda trivial but still confusing) and B. there’s no actual proof of how you achieved what you just did. It seems pretty messy to not be able to see what’s going on in between; the Mirror’s Edge style (i.e including the menuing in the footage and timing) seems a lot better. > [@Gocnλk](#): > > Since the output is the same for every runner doing the glitch (the save becomes deleted), and no other menu option (other than New Game and difficulty LOL) causes a different output for the run, I don’t see the problem with excluding the timing for menuing. Technically, if we start timing menuing, it can lead to people potentially losing a PB/WR due to menuing slowly due to reaction time due to bad sleep due to… The menuing becomes part of the run though. I don’t see how bad reaction time/bad sleep is an excuse seeing as that also applies to any other part of the run. If someone loses a PB/WR due to slow menuing that’s their fault, the same way that it is their fault if their movement is slow or if they have to retry a trick more than once. If you don’t include the menuing as part of the run then what’s stopping people from going to the menu and taking a break? I know it’s already not continuous (neither is RTA) but at that point it’s not even in a single sitting which is the whole point. ---
**Author:** ![S11](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@S11](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/S11)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/36 "2015-07-15T19:48:59Z")
> I agree with Gocnak, Allow it but only in a separate category. It breaks the continuity of the run. Nothing you did in the run impacts it, if you are on 25hp you will now be on 100, Except I just played through 3 and a half fucking chapters just to make sure that if I do the save deletion glitch and die, it will actually put me on canals\_11 and not on fucking trainstation\_01 > In a sense, this would be like trying to say that "Legacy Inbounds" Portal is the only real Inbounds category. It isn't, which is why it has it's own name. This hits spot on. > As for using the "New Game" menu to do something similar, my only input is that it CANNOT be used for going forwards in the run. Even if they are all unlocked, if you go forwards using New Game you're gonna be deemed an epic cheater and not taken seriously. Plus wouldn't using that technically be New Game+? Obviously. If you're only on eli\_02, you can't use the menu to go into Ravenholm, because you're not supposed to have that button unlocked yet. But if you actually got into town\_01 first, the button has unlocked (someone confirm this to be sure) and you should be able to do it. Questions raised: 1. Could I set (a corrupted) autosave.sav as read-only and maybe achieve save-deletion results this way? B: Are we disallowing “kill” and “reload”, console-only commands normally inaccessible to the player? (These two commands actually do something ingame, unlike cl\_showpos which just prints stuff on your screen.) We better, because if we do allow them then why would we not allow ch\_createairboat as well? - Who is going to come up with a good solution on timing menu time. (Or who is going to change SourceSplit to do this for us?). Until this happens, there’s no point running this category. ---
**Author:** ![Babbaj](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Babbaj](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Babbaj)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/37 "2015-07-16T01:23:15Z")
if cl\_showpos is allowed is r\_drawclipbrushes and showtriggers\_toggle allowed? ---
**Author:** ![Woobly](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/w/b77776/32.png) [@Woobly](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Woobly)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/38 "2015-07-16T01:32:21Z")
> if cl\_showpos is allowed is r\_drawclipbrushes and showtriggers\_toggle allowed? no, because you need sv\_cheats 1 for showtriggers\_toggle and r\_drawclipbrushes. cl\_showpos doesn't require sv\_cheats 1. ---
**Author:** ![Babbaj](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Babbaj](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Babbaj)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/39 "2015-07-16T01:36:37Z")
why are you allowing valve to set the rules? ---
**Author:** ![Elgu](https://b-cdn.sourceruns.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/e/b5a626/32.png) [@Elgu](https://forums.sourceruns.org/u/Elgu)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 9:07am UTC](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668/40 "2015-07-16T09:07:09Z")
> [@Woobly](#): > > no, because you need sv\_cheats 1 for showtriggers\_toggle and r\_drawclipbrushes. Uh, what? Lmao [Previous page](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.sourceruns.org/t/should-we-allow-save-deletion/2668.md?page=3)