Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes


#21

Nobody is going to do it.

Why can’t we just put a limit on the amount of commands allowed to be bound to one button instead of arguing over every single command in the Source Engine or just not allow player movement or viewangle commands because that would allow the ability to make a TAS, all you guys are doing right now is acknowledging the unlikely situation that some idiot is going to make a TAS and call it an RTA run.


#22

What sounds better, “this is not allowed” or “this is allowed but if you do it we’ll reject your run”? Like Maxam said, it’s not even about the extreme, it’s about the fake time save gained from constantly creating more and more scripts. It’s not a level playing field until you reach the absolute limit.

Also, assuming that TAS tools improve for Source as they have for GoldSrc, at some point you’ll likely be able to convert TAS script to in-game script, meaning these kinds of situations will become even more feasible.


#23

Yes, I know its theoretically allowed but why aren’t we suggesting ways prevent it, only I have so far and the suggestions have been ignored.


#24

As I understand it, we are discussing the scriptless category and BitRain is speaking for having a scripted category. I don’t know exactly how the question in the vote was phrased but I believe it was something like “Do you think it should be allowed to, with a single input, perform multiple commands at once?”. My guess is that people had the save;load thing in mind and voted based on their opinion on that.

So should scriptless be removed or a new category be formed? So if the goal is to have a scripted category then we should pretty much do the same as we currently do with the same situation in HL1?


#25

As far as I know the majority of people that took the HL2 rules survey that was sent out is in favor of having "multiple commands bound to one key ie, “save quick;load quick”.

I’m not for or against it being scripted, I don’t care ether way. But if it does end up that people want to allow multiple commands bound to one button, as PJC says, the problem of people making TASes arrives, this is why I’m asking what we should do to prevent that.

Or we could go the Half Life route and make a scripted category and not have to deal with this issue, in case someone makes an “RTA TAS”.


#26

It is indeed likely that people voted in favour of it with save;load in mind, which is a solid example of why direct democracy in a community like this isn’t going to work most of the time. The fact is that the majority of the outer community are highly uneducated on this kind of stuff, nor do they care enough to be educated on it. This probably explains why a lot of people are so reluctant to discuss or be involved with decisions, especially considering they are only remotely connected with SourceRuns itself. Therefore, it makes more sense if the people that *do *know what they’re talking about act as representatives and discuss issues rationally and objectively until a solution is met.

In this case, the ill-informed win because they’re the majority.


#27

That is a bit rude isn’t it? So people can’t make their own decisions based on what they think will be cool and fun? They are ALL uneducated and ill-informed? Do you even want new people to run games and submit them to SR?

not flaming here or kicking a hornets nest, just felt like that might be a rude to people who are genuinely trying to make runs for the benefit of the community…


#28

It isn’t rude in the slightest. It’s an observation, not an attack. Is it possible to provide the knowledge? Yes, via the Wiki, tutorials and other means, but you can’t impose that knowledge on people, they have to gather it themselves, many of which won’t because the most they care about is being able to set up the game and learning how to speedrun it; this is fine. However, being able to set up the game and run it is one thing; making sensible decisions on convoluted issues for the greater good of not only the current community, but also future communities is another thing.

Outsiders can become insiders by becoming more knowledgeable and experienced, the same way that insiders can become outsiders by becoming inactive and not keeping up with the times. I am not singling out a group of individuals, I am attempting to explain why the system used here didn’t work.

Ever complain about websites like YouTube and Twitch constantly updating their layout, rules, etc? We’re all guilty of it at first, but then a month or two down the line you’ve already gotten used to it, you’re not complaining anymore and you’re possibly more understanding as to why such changes were made. The initial reaction is based on conservatism; this isn’t healthy for a speedrunning community where most of the rules weren’t thought out properly in the first place.

No, clearly not, that’s why I set up the leaderboards, IRC channel, became an admin to support the development of the site, brought together an initially very scattered GoldSrc community, regularly offer help wherever I’m able etc.


#29

Then stop making these open discussions? If you want to tell people THESE are the rules you must follow… Then simply dictate those rules? If you let people choose what they want then you are bound to get the results you personally do not want.

Leave it to the mods to make and layout the rules. I don’t see what the issue is. Really. It could be so simple but it is almost intentionally being over-discussed and over thought? imho. What is this Bitrain said about a questionnaire? Who was that sent out to? Are they ill-informed or uneducated? Looks to me like 90% of the people on this site are uneducated and just wrong all the time.

It was quite rude mate, not to me, but others that really actually did think about it and then still voted out of your favour. you basically said to everyone that voted for what you’re against uneducated and ill-informed? Everyone would probably love to have all the rules set in stone but everyone also knows that things change, like you even said. So why is it a problem and why did it need to be addressed in such a way? I just couldn’t fathom why you would say something like that PJC, it didn’t make sense to me you of all people would post that graph annotated in that way. I tried to discuss with you about rules and stuff but it is really hard to grasp what you actually want because it always just goes back to “people can’t be bothered”


#30

Just to clarify any sort out of the game macros and scripts or any additional automation(including SPT) is not allowed. The goal is not to make a scripted category, I guess you can think of it as scriptless + save/load bind if you consider multiple inputs bound to one key a script.

“Should having multiple commands bound to the same key be allowed?” was the question.


#31

It’s not about what *I *want, I don’t even run Half-Life 2. I’m just sticking up for the people who are informed enough to realize that save;load is a script (literally a fact) who are outvoted by people that might not be aware of this or why it’s bad because they’ve always just followed the standard.

I agree, the most knowledgeable and rational people should be calling the shots, that’s exactly my point. That’s not what happened here. Rules are being over-discussed because nobody is willing to do anything about it or let others do something about it. On the rare occasion that something is done about it, the people that do so are looked at in a bad light because they didn’t have some sort of mandate which they already asked for.

If there were others that really were aware and still voted for something that they know is objectively wrong, then they’re selfish.

I couldn’t care less if people view me negatively just for putting forward arguments. If this is the case, then those people are clearly quite immature and don’t understand how to differentiate between rational discussions and personal arguments. I’ve been wrong on many occasions and accepted it, but this is not a case where I accept that I am.


#32

This pretty much comes down to the same thing as the skill-changing discussion in HL1. Do we want the majority of the current runners to keep having their fun the same old way or do we want to be right in a more objective way while there is a chance that the people in this majority change their minds hint to PJC’s post, #25 in the thread.

Scriptless + save/load seems so weird while keeping in mind that just having two seperate binds is basically the same thing. When I ran the game I had save quick bound to capslock and load quick on tab and I don’t feel like I were in any kind of disadvantage not using save quick;load quick.


#33

I have no reason to believe the majority will change their mind. The ratio of people that stick to the game and become well-established runners compared to the people who just submit one or two runs or quit the game after a short while is highly unbalanced. That’s how speedrunning works, some people really enjoy the game and become passionate about it whereas many people try it out, submit a few runs and realize it’s not their thing after a while. Therefore, if we continually ignore what is objectively right in order to cater to the people who are blindly following the standard and aren’t sure what their stances really are, there will be no progression.


#34

Update on the timing rules. Sourcesplit now times menus automatically for HL2, EP1 and EP2 in Livesplit 1.6. So just upgrade to that and you should be good to go! No manual timing needed.


#35

I guess I’ll throw in my 2 cents. I don’t, nor have I ever, actually used save/load scripts in any of my runs. When I took the survey, when I heard “scripts”, all I thought of at the time was just the save load script. However, if we’re including ALL scripts, with multiple binds, then I am in fact against that.

I do have a question though, regarding specific maps. If you run ghosting mod, do you have to use the 5135 build of prison_07 (and/or all maps on 5135) which causes Alyx to not spawn? Or is it that you can’t use that specific map? If it’s the latter, then I would say that isn’t consistent with other speed running communities that use specific versions of games to do runs. EG: OoT 100% uses VC, but Any% used to use the iQue. I think I’m just misreading, and hoping it’s the former, but if it’s the latter…

Also, a question about binds. I currently have a bind for hard saving and loading, is this still allowed? I mean you can’t bind hard saves/loads in the main menu, but you can do it via the main menu (making and loading hard saves). I also have a bind for changing sensitivity, same deal as hard saves/loads. Is this now banned?

Edit: Also, what about having jump bound to 3 separate keys? EG: mouse up, down, and space?


#36

You have to use all of the 5135 maps for Ghosting. It’s supposed to replicate the 5135 engine so same rules apply.

Hard saves allowed, you can bind a command to any number of keys.

I don’t know about the sensitivity thing really, it didn’t really occur to me that people would want to use them, I guess you could argue that you can also set it from the menu so it’s not console exclusive, but it’s not as convenient. So that’s still up in the air, although I’m guessing most people wouldn’t oppose using them?

EDIT: On the save/load bind/scripts thing, the question was about binding multiple commands to one key, the save/load bind was just an example. You are allowed to bind any number of commands to one key, provided that they are within the rules(for example the wait command is not allowed).


#37

Right, so ignoring the scripting nonsense, can someone explain to me the logic behind allowing console-only commands like kill, r_portalsopenall and reload, but not allowing similar commands?

I understand why sv_cheats 1 isn’t allowed, as it clearly says it’s a cheat, and for ch_createairboat the ch likely means “CHeat”.

But if r_portalsopenall is allowed, why am i not allowed to use r_drawclipbrushes? Both of these are r_ commands and both do something visual to aid the player in seeing.
If kill is allowed, why am I not allowed to use buddha? Neither of these are cheat protected, and they do similar things (change the player’s health)
If reload is allowed, why am I not allowed to use give? Both of these commands I can also achieve by doing an actual ingame action (dying then firing, or walking over a pickup, respectively)

What is the logic behind having so many exceptions of commands that are allowed? Someone please educate me on why “no console commands except the ones bindable through the menu” is such a bad rule that the majority of people voted against it.


#38

Well, the answer to your question is very simple: the rules of speedrunning are arbitrary.
Example: Portal 2. Modifying portal funneling is allowed, even though it’s not an option in the menu. The logic behind allowing the modification of portal funneling- and this is a direct quote from speedrun.com- “it’s a user option in portal 1.”
This logic is so ridiculously flawed it makes me want to shove a thumbtack in my eye. Portal 1 and portal 2 are COMEPLETELY different games. Although turning portal funneling on and off is useful, so is r_ambient_light and that’s clearly restricted. It boils down to what the community finds the most useful. If it makes a speedrun significantly faster, and it’s not protected by cheats, it’s irresistible. Someone will try to justify it and everyone will pretend to agree with them and it’ll get approved. Sorry, but that’s just the truth of the matter.


#39

I voted exactly like you, and I agree with you entirely