Non-scriptless runs tool usage

[treetoon]

99% of all no-scripted runs are essentially done with developer 0. If a run uses dev 1 surely this should be a separate category since it’s an obvious advantage. For example, you can cut off 30 seconds during the IHD with 1000fps. Maybe SDA don’t care if dev is on or off but it surely makes a difference in both scripted and no-scripted runs.
The assumption seems to be thatif it’s scripted, set dev 1, if it’s no-scripted, set dev 0, but in the end we have four different categories.

@quadrazid

“wait” is one of the kind command. Is there any reason to allow it for a scriptless run?

While I agree with you that it might not be appropriate, what are the basis of disallowing a command just because it’s a no-scripted run rather than a scripted when the command “wait” is simply that, a command, and not a script.

@PJC

Though the folks verifying runs at SDA might not have any idea about any of this, it also shows that when it comes to scriptless runs, the main things they’re looking for in deciding on whether to reject a run or not are scripts that they would consider ‘cheats’, such as bunnyhop, duckroll and usespam scripts which would give the player a huge advantage over someone running the game raw because they can just hold a key to do a certain skill for them, much like a cheat program might give you no recoil in Counter-Strike. It’s removing the need to be skilled at certain tricks and techniques and therefore in SDA’s eyes it is cheating to use something like that in a run which is supposed to be vanilla.

I wouldn’t say changing the recoil in CS is a good comparison to scripts since it’s changing a fundamental value of the game but I understand your point.

@PJC

Let’s not forget that we’re talking about ‘scripts’ here and not just plain console commands. Sure, you might argue that you can class anything written in the console as a script but let’s face it, when someone mentions the word ‘scripts’ to you when talking about runs, you instantly think of stuff like bhop and duckroll…I would consider that a script, because it’s combining more than one command to be used with a single keypress (or scroll in this case). If you were to simply bind mwheelup to “wait” then I wouldn’t see any problem with that…EDIT: In fact, isn’t this what a script basically is? Binding more than one command to a single keypress, right?

“…a script is a list of commands that can be executed without user interaction.”

• http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/S/script.html

“A scripting language … automate the execution of tasks that could alternatively be executed one-by-one by a human operator.”

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_language

Looking at these definitions, bind MWHEELUP “wait” shouldn’t be considered a script and therefor should be allowed in no-scripted runs. But then again maybe it should be banned for the sake of keeping no-scripted runs the way they are.

bind MWHEELUP “wait;wait” should not be allowed in no-scripted runs since it’s partially automated.

Banning the use of the console and .CFG files seems asinine to me since there’s a lot you can configure but still avoiding making scripts, we just needed a clear definition of what’s allowed.

Maybe we’re getting a bit off topic in this thread btw

[WindedCone859]

so whats the final verdict? are the + commands going to be added or is there still more time for more votes?

[Arianon]

Same.

[SpiderWaffle]

It’s a very complex subject where only a small handful of people really know and understand the true nature and scope of what is involved, the differences, where human skill comes into play and doesn’t and what other communities have done and the pros and cons of their rules and enforcement which also varies across the board from game to game and league to league.

I’ve read so many things in this thread alone that need refuting and it’s about 20 times more knowledgeable/experienced and sensible than the SDA posters.

And it’s funny, my last post at SDA, before Mike banned me, was merely trying to start a resolution for this can of worms before larger problems arose for them with the poorly implemented, non-complete, vague, ambiguous and arbitrary ruling of “no scripts”. And to no surprise to me, I see there’s already grandfathered runs and controversy over the exact matter I posted about. I guess what’s deserved for callously looking over those trying to help. I don’t know why goldsource or even source players continue to care about or contribute to that site or community, they don’t care about you’re best interests, never have since Nolan left, Quake has even pretty dissolved of them.

[Centaurium]

Huge bump, but I figure I might as well shed some light on the history of this community based on the previous post.

Spider-Waffle, everything you said was spot-on. SDA’s whole “no-script” business, and that ridiculous segmenting penalty, is mainly why we created this community in the first place. Personally, I haven’t visited the site since 2010 for pretty much the same exact reasons you listed. I suppose when they pulled all the Half-Life runs from the site, including at the time our Episode 1 run, it initiated the final nail in the coffin; we, as a team, were done appeasing to their website and took on building a community ourselves using penalty-free, and purely mathematical guidelines (such as counting each tick for a completely accurate final run time), however this isn’t speaking for individual members wanting to submit their own runs to SDA, such as PJC. Furthermore, LLCoolDave’s lovely news-post over your run also showed how tacky they can be. Showing a public bias towards a single member like that, especially when they have such a large influence, was completely out of line, no matter what said-member has done.

One of our biggest goals for the community was to have a council of runners, which, at the time, was made up of the Episode 1 runners and RandomEngy (briefly). These people would review runs, scripts, strats, etc and decide what was ethically acceptable and would still be considered legal by previously-set SDA regulations, once you exclude everything relating to scripts. This later turned into the community as a whole debating a topic until we’ve all come to a decision we could agree on. (or at least had a majority ruling on) If that didn’t work fast enough, we took it to the skype group.

I suppose the whole point of this is that letting your personal dictations on what you like and don’t like, or not evolving with an ever-changing genre, should NOT be included in any decision-making process when said dictation is meant to irradiate a climbing trend they simply do not like.

However, these only reflect my views, and the views of the other now-inactive founders of this community. I know a lot of newer members here, and a few older ones too, still go to SDA and participate within their community, so the last thing I would want to do is make things complicated for them through my opinions.

[BitRain]

^Well said.

I think that scripts should be allowed if they’re humanly possible, like the ones Yalter put into SPT.
Any human can put enough practice into their reflexes in order to do things quickly or precisely, like a soldier shooting targets quickly or a fighter pilot reacting quickly to evade missiles, etc. (The brain is capable of amazing things). Scripts just remove the need to be precise with every jump, plus, scripting is a feature of the game that allows you to make scripts that jump for you, so why not make use of it?
I’ve seen people try and do non scripted half life runs before, they tend to be very sloppy because they’re trying to either mash space or rapidly scroll with +jump bound to mwheelup or whatever, and it tends to ruin the speed gained.

If you ask me, scripts like autojump are what makes Bhop/ABH/ASH the magic and fun that is source speedrunning.

[execut4ble]

Couldn’t have been said any better.

[SpiderWaffle]

“done appeasing” and tired of waiting. That’s essentially the backbone for the inception and use of a mod in the community. It’s well known Valve is absolutely shit at communicating with their communities of players, not that many gaming companies are any good at this now a days. It’s heavily based on monetary results and what the top industry professionals want to do, how they see things fit and projects they want to take initiative on. Obviously communication and appeasing the top percentile of the most vested, passionate enthusiasts isn’t even on the radar.

It’s joke how many bugs for games such TFC, HLDM, and HL itself have been well documented and reported with hordes of the the before mentioned enthusiasts all but screaming at Valve, even spoon feeding them the straight up fixes in code that the communities have worked together on, or finding the exact source in the code. Valve has done next to nothing since 1997, and only in a few instances appeasing their largest communities that have obvious profit implications, though still poorly (Riot Shields?), such a the 170% jump cap for the CS community. That’s why these communities have gone ahead and made their own mods like AG, Fortress Forever, HL bunny, ect; making the game the best way the community sees fit, essentially doing what Valve should have been doing for the last 17+ years, implementing and fixing the all subtle things that make the game better but were neglected.

Here’s the Github posts below, a complete joke, 1 employee actually started reading these like 2 years ago, funny to wait 15 years, though he has only done anything about just a couple of them, and one ‘fix’ has received a massive backlash from the communities; so effectively they’ve done nothing for 15 years, then more harm than good in last 2 years. Good news is that communities have plenty of power and resources to do this themselves via mods. I’m not alone when I say I don’t want to play these broken Valve games neglected for last 17 years, I’d much rather play the community driven mods that can offer the best all worlds that are built and designed by enthusiasts for enthusiasts.

https://github.com/ValveSoftware/halflife/issues
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/halflife/issues/1419

PS. here’s a video I made explaining bhop mechanics and the history of HL patches, their effect, and the jumping method delima.

[Richard]

I agree Spider-Waffle.