Mid-run difficulty changing discussion

λ Half-Life
21

The only thing that makes the run more beginner friendly is that it enables people to do the vortiguant boost without playing the whole game on Hard difficulty, meanwhile the top tier runners would be able to play the whole game on Easy since there are alternatives (that are faster than vortiguant boost). But these alternatives are pretty hard and inconsistent but suitable enough for high tier runners. Mid-run difficulty changing would not take away the advantage that skilled people has because they can use faster alternatives. All it would do is make more people able to run the category.

The things I’m saying are actual arguments that has nothing to do with subjectivity. The only subjective questions in this topic are; Is it legit?; Do I like it (would I use it in runs) and Do I want to set a subjective limit to the speedrun? The first question is irrelevant and the second question is basically what this vote is for. But, that last question is very important. Because, even if there’s only one person who does not want to set this subjective limit, then it shouldn’t be set. I haven’t encountered a single factual argument to why it shouldn’t be allowed. How many times in this thread have I *actually *expressed my opinion? Maybe once. And in that same post I said that I was fond of how it currently is but that I had realized that I would prefer mid-run difficulty changing after having done lots of thinking on the topic. So, what I’m afraid of is that the outcome of this vote is the result of people who are not as concerned as me and put as much thought on it as I.

This is because this is a subject completely new to most of us and I’m the one who is the most involved in it and pretty much said everything needed to be said already. We have received answers from people and I can tell you that I’m not alone in wanting to allow this (as long as any% Hard stays the same). I don’t want to say how many or who as it could affect the vote and I don’t want to be unfair (a bit of a weird way of thinking but we’ll see if we’ll update the list real-time or not).

22

(Gold)Source speedrunning

23

It is irrelevant because we should make rules about whatever the majority of the community find is interesting. Why should we care about what Valve intended, why should we care if people think it’s non-legit when it becomes legit to us if it is agreed upon. And some kind of continuity is needed. If it makes sense. -hasty reply, also read the thread more carefully and this should have been explained.

24

I understand all this, just that speedrunning is usually about completing the game as fast as possible while staying constrained to the rules set by the game developer, and in (Gold)Source it has been a particularly large mess so far. Also using your logic I cannot, for example, explain why we aren’t running on bunnymod pro or just latest steam without the bhopcap, uncapped fps+bhop is way more fun and interesting than capped: you get to do the TC skip and all the quickgauss shots while still being able to fly around at large speeds.

25

I’d class the beginner-friendliness as more of a convenience rather than an actual argument on whether or not to allow the changing, especially considering the matter is a subjective one to begin with which you even said yourself (rules are made for fairness + making it more interesting etc) and I agree with.

This is something based on preference (what most people find more interesting), unlike objective debates which serve a purpose to find an ultimate solution. Therefore arguing for/against it is comparable to an argument between fans of different genres of music; a pointless one.

Well, this is a community and therefore we base subjective decisions on what the majority desire. In the case that there is only one person, it wouldn’t be set on the leaderboards or in SR ruling at least. Obviously people are free to do what they want otherwise.

Why would anyone else submitting runs to the leaderboards/channel not be as concerned? It affects them all just as much after all.

26

Here’s my opinion.
It is true that doing the multiskill difficulty would provide the fastest run. In a speedrunning sense, sure, we strive to shave off the maximum amount of time possible in the run. But…

I did a run on easy just to see how it feels like and here’s what I think: enemies are basically paper, and you take marginal amounts of damage from them aswell, so you are less punished from some types of mistakes. That kinda made the run too easy for my liking. I think it took away some challenge.

I’m someone who values a fun run more than a potentially faster run in exchange for fun/challenge. Of course this is subjective.

Anyhow, I also think that calling it the “HL any%” category makes no sense because there are no different percentages you can complete the game with. I’ve already seen people basing their decision on whether the category would become the main one or not. I think if it is made into a category of the same “importance” as the current Hard category, more people would be willing to be in favor of it. I’m in favor of making the both equally important categories.

27

Yeah I agree, to me for example, what matters more if whether I’d like to run the new category or not based on how I feel about it, not about how objectively faster it is, because I don’t think faster necessarily equals better.

28

^Sometimes it depends on how fast your going, rather than how quick you get there. :slight_smile:

29

The skill command is not a mod and we can’t know what Valve intended with the skill command in the first place. Development purposes or to enable people to switch difficulty if they change their mind without starting the game over. Usually cheats are put into games for development purposes, but the skill command is not protected by sv_cheats.

Response to PJC:
I think in all technicality it is legit and rules are set to accommodate our liking. But we are just a community within Half-Life speedrunning so should we actually put such limits (we can’t say we own Half-Life speedrunning)? Right now I feel the same as when I found out that chophopping (duckrolling) was banned on my favourite TFC speedrun (conc/quad) server. On that “concerned” read troubled or anxious, I’m not meaning to imply that my opinion is more valuable. I just want people to form an opinion with all aspects in mind.

If a category is of high importance it is because of high popularity, so whatever category becomes the most popular one will be seen as the main one. Current Hard category will never be able to be purely Half-Life, it will always be Half-Life Hard (a separate topic) otherwise it will limit other difficulty runs. Purely Half-Life is, im going to quote guywith, “Theoretically, I would love this because it focuses on how fast HALF-LIFE can be beaten and not some difficulty/variable.”.

30

Except if you push the new category as “Half-Life Any%”, people will automatically think that the one with the extra Hard property will be a secondary one.

Except I never said anything about Hard being the pure Half-Life, I’m saying that making a “pure” half-life category will automatically put it as the main one, regardless of popularity.

31

I wouldn’t necessarily say that it would automatically put it as the main one but I see your point. However, if it did, then so be it, there would be nothing to do about it except labeling it as Half-Life any% MultiSkill.

I’d rather take a break from the discussion as I’m tired of answering everyone and would like to see the matter discussed between other parts. So if anyone wants to continue or has anything new to bring up, please do. I’ll rejoin in a day or two (this has caused me way too much procrastination).

32

Mmkay, as long as people are okay with that, it’s good to me.

33

We can’t say we own Half-Life speedrunning, but what we do own are the most popular (Gold)Source speedrunning leaderboards, YouTube channel and forums without any apparent competition. Therefore, most people recognise us as the main (Gold)Source speedrunning community and will want to play by the rules we set as that community.

34

I don’t have anything against it in latest steam (bhop cap\unlimited fps), but it doesn’t feel like one sitting for me.
Also I could go into great swamp of legit\non-legit things such as you can’t change difficulty via options and changing it though console is cheating. But I won’t. because it’s [sub]dumb and full of double-standars[/sub]

Totally agree with guy and Tryedz

Too lazy\tired right now to write anything else. I might add something later.

35

This is the vote progress so far: http://puu.sh/jpRMq/28eb6d3d49.png

16/40 votes. Please reach out to those who haven’t voted yet.

36

I’m with the majority in that was is “legit” is subjective not the most important thing; I care more about what is more enjoyable to play within reason. I’d probably have more fun speedrunning if the RPG was the TFC rocket launcher but that’s not within reason, (ie altering the fundamentals of a game).

Personally I’m not seeing a whole lot of change or fun coming from this for anyone other than being able to make enemy boosts do more damage on easy runs for beginners.

Personally I don’t really think that should be a major entry barrier that’s holding people back:

The game itself being setup is clearly the largest barrier for beginners as has been mentioned to death, beyond that you’ll looking at basic FPS fundamentals, bopping, self damage boosting tricks and stuff:

  1. You don’t have to complete full SS runs of HL to be part of the speedrunning community or to want to play or learn a game more or contribute in meaningful ways.

  2. You also don’t have to do enemy boosts to complete full runs of Half-Life.

  3. If you’re that much of a beginner that you need to do SS runs on easy (with infinite health door mind you) (and the option of using loads) The 60s you can potentially save by virtue of enemy damage boosts being much easier should definitely not be your largest concern.

So given that, I’m not seeing this adding much, whilst it does clearly hedge into “what is reasonable” and create more opaque confusion for people looking in from the outside. Overall I would see this as having a negative impact.

That said, if anyone wants to do variable difficulty runs they every right to do it, but I wouldn’t overwrite sensible categories with it or even try to honor it as a main stay category, that is UNLESS multiple people have experienced it thoroughly and can attest for it’s worth-while-ness.

37

Nay for making it the main category.

You (Maxam) asserted that anything legit that provides entertainment primarily to speedrunners should be allowed. Therefore changing skills is allowed because it reduces beginners’ frustratrations, meanwhile providing further exploitation possibilities for experts. The corollary is that “notarget” should be banned becuase it doesn’t make runs more interesting, nor does it provide fun to the runners.

You did not make a convincing case.

Why not make sv_airaccelerate 20 the default for speedrunning? It is not cheat protected, and with the right value it can certainly make runs faster without inducing nausea. Maybe 20aa allows beginners to make that trick jump that they wouldn’t be able to otherwise. How about changing sk_* settings? If you increase Vortigaunt’s damage via one of these, the boost in test chamber will be feasible in Easy, there wouldn’t be a need to modify “skill” amidst a run. These should “technically” be allowed, and as you said, “who are we to decide to disallow something that would speed up the speedrun because we simply don’t like it, when technically it should be allowed”. Don’t say they should be banned because they’re “server side” settings. This is irrelevant in SP and almost everything (including “skill”) can directly affect the server.

Also, you argued that we should disregard Valve’s decisions on “what’s meant to be”. It logically and inescapably follows that we should disregard sv_cheats as well. Why should we care if Valve decided that impulse 101 is meant to be a cheat? I think we should allow impulse 203 for occasional use, as it can be used to remove that one NPC in some map that is impeding my way towards WR. I guess I should make a separate thread for allowing “give weapon_gauss”. Just think about how much fun it can provide to be able to obtain gauss earlier than what Valve intended, and how much it can boost Half-Life speedrunning’s accessibility for newcomers. Pfft who cares about Valve and the viewers?

It is dangerous to emphasise on keeping the runners entertained. The lust for entertainment for the runners is exactly why people cheat: awww yeah I just raised egon’s damage 100 times in my WR run, look how much fun it provides for me as a speedrunner! You’ll be hard pressed to make a good argument against increasing weapon damage slightly via sk_* or increasing sv_maxspeed slightly, without also arguing against the ideas of “providing entertainment first and foremost to the speedrunners” or “we should disregard Chairman Valve’s mandate”.

Ultimately, changing skill will only make runs less relatable. Runners and non-runners alike just don’t play in multiple skill settings because it is not the default, the same way they don’t go about changing sv_stopspeed to make their lives easier. This is also the reason why some of my TASes are in 100aa instead of 100000aa, because most people know what it’s like to be running in 100aa but no one can relate to sv_maxspeed 10000 or sv_airaccelerate 67 or sv_stepsize 92. Sure, if everyone starts running in 20aa, then that will be the new standard, the new game in town and the new thing people can relate to. But is this what you want to accomplish here?

Until a stronger case is being made I wouldn’t feel comfortable allowing this. Remember, if something can be done, it does not mean that it should be allowed by default.

Pros

[ul][li]A tiny bit of entertainment[/li][/ul]

Cons

[ul][li]Pushes Half-Life speedrunning currently in a grey area further towards the dark side[/li]
[li]Runs will be less relatable because “multiple skill settings” is not the default[/li]
[li]Making all the older runs obsolete without gaining anything[/li]
[li]Non-runners question the HL speedrunning scene for altering settings instead of pulling off impressive tricks or discovering glitches, making this community more insular and reinforcing the “they don’t get us!” mindset[/li][/ul]

38

I’d say a big focus for most speedrunners is to entertain, so you have to take the viewers thoughts (which are based on other games, their own experience with the game in question and their beliefs on what the developer intended) into consideration. Ultimately, the runner does whatever pleases himself the most (if he cheats he won’t get others’ approval).

So yes, technically every single console command should be discussed individually. But that would be too tedious to do so the easiest thing is to not try to deviate from a normal playthrough (default settings) too much. Using commands like sv_maxspeed and sk_* are different to Skill command because those commands are generally not used in a normal playthrough. Also commands in other games with similar effects as sv_maxspeed, sk_* and notarget are usually cheat protected.

The biggest reasons why I want it to be allowed is because it is faster, imo it fits with current Goldsrc standards and I think I would enjoy the game more using it. As PJC said, it’s just an extra convenience that it makes the game more beginner friendly, although I’ve used this as my most reoccurring argument. People have said that it doesn’t make much of a difference but it is the fastest way. Of course people have to adapt to the new style of the run and not just do as they always did but on an easier difficulty.

I don’t agree with any of the listed points by Airstrafers.

39

Skill isn’t used in a normal playthrough either?

40

It could be if say, someone would want to change the game’s difficulty. You know, because maybe they find the game too easy or too hard? It’s certainly not uncommon.