Hate to add more fuel to a fire, but many are not in the IRC chat. (like me!) I had no idea of the new rules (WON dlls must be used or something like that) till I found out in a forum post somewhere.
However, I see nothing wrong with how it currently is. If you want a community voice, you can have mine. If people want higher FPS above anything else, then use the steam version. If you don’t want that, do something else (what exactly that is I have no clue). In the end though, it comes down to what exactly the CURRENT runners want. If they are fine with what they have now, this topic has already been dealt with and no one needs to do any more arguing.
Nobody has had any problems with the standards established.
There have already been many post to the contrary, myself included.
Spiderwaffle is notably one of the least active runners and is even less present in the community
I am contacted by and in contact with active runners in the community and modding on SS run streams nearly every day. I just released a largest run in goldsource history, HL21, 9 months ago, and have probably done more to proliferate and help the community than any other person. I don’t see how that is being deemed the least active. History is important too, You wouldn’t tell Frank Shamrock, or Rickson Gracie they have no business holding open forum for MMA because they’ve been publicly inactive for last 9 months. And all this is besides the point, Lebron James may as well be hosting a thread about this, the arguments and voices of the community being heard is what matters.
So few people here actively run goldsrc in comparison to the rest of the community, and even fewer run SS/RTA.
I don’t really see any of those people weighing in though, if they are let me know. And don’t worry I’m not holding a poll in which unknown accounts can cast equal votes as prominent community leaders.
[table] [tr] [td]Problem is it’s not as simple as that. There’s already a vanilla version available without the bhop cap (WON version), that’s what the SS/RTA community are using/replicating (basically most players are using the server.dll from the most optimal WON versions for HL1 and OP4 and placing it in NGHL or Steam to get as close as possible to the original game but with the ability to record continuous demos and have better loading times which are currently needed due to lack of an in-game timer). [/td] [/tr] [/table]
Why not use a version with an in-game timer then? You’re already creating un-offical advantageous hybrid version that doesn’t exist by Valve, I don’t much of any more legitimacy to this than a lot of other mods such floating around.
FPS limits are important to discuss too. Some of the large pros of higher fps are faster bhop acceleration, faster runs, smoother, faster tics for things like IHD and jump bug, smaller frames spent on ground if using forms of turbo spam for jumping. And cons are creating higher computer specs required to enter into level playing field, less people interested in joining and competing.
In addition it's pretty clear that the majority is in favor of scriptless, because the scriptless runs heavily outnumber the scripted runs. The fact that people used scripts in AG is irrelevant. The only scripted runs I can think of are quad's and treeton's. At least 24 people have done a scriptless hl1 run, as you can see at[url=http://www.speedrun.com/hl1]http://www.speedrun.com/hl1[/url]
I’m not seeing the script-less runs heavily outnumbering scripted runs, or how that is truely accurate measure of what people want. I’d care wager the many casual scriptless runs are more or less by product of there being a lack of fair standard for scripted runs ever created and the runners not knowing or wanting to deal with installing or making scripts. There’s quite a few scripted runs you’re leaving out too such as the first ever SS completed in 2004 or nearly all the segmented runs ever made and all the scripted SS runs that never had a time submitted because there was no convenient website to simply submit it to, Guys like Slynki I know have reported doing many such runs, and I hear about them doing being done by fans of mine all the time.
People using scripts in AG, TFC, and other similar games from these communities is VERY relevant. These were very large thriving regulated competitive communities in which most people running or interested in speedrunning goldsource came from and will continue to come from. These are best examples of places to look for in terms what regulations worked and were agreed on for the best interests of the gameplay, competition and fairness. They had established regulations on scripts. A Standard of regulations on scripts never got a chance to be establish in speedrunning. A vision Quad and I shared was to have a short and sweet set of simple pre-made scripts such special bhop, guass boost, and object boost. Something along the lines what goldsource multiplayers would have used and what the new Tribes is doing.
Myself and most players of the greater goldsource community have largely grown in favor special script jumping or shotgun scripts or quake style jumping vs mouse wheel. The pros of a jumping system or jump spamming method other than hardware or mousewheel are that it’s nearly effortless for anyone entering to be on equal ground and keep things fair for everyone. Not everyone has a great mouse wheel or turbo controller to use, or is willing to subject themselves to finger joint injury and arthritis or faith their competion isn’t simply using scripts, just for the sake of not using 1st party scripts and claiming unequal 3rd party hardware to be more official or righteous.
The only pro I can see to using hardware assistance like mouse wheels is a dubious claim to being more righteous than script users.
This debate has been had, in the IRC. A far more suitable medium for discussion than this forum.
It might be a better medium of discussion, it has a lot of benefits, and I'm open to using multiple mediums of discussion, hosted VOIP debate, ect. The problem is many people were left out entirely from this. I don't want to discredit whatever was said there, it's sounding more and more legitimate. If those people involved really feel strongly they've arrived at the best solution, then they can by all means do what they want to do, but they're not speaking for everyone, and feel there's a lot of good points that this solution has left undefended or better options that might not have been considered tested deeply enough and sources for future problems to arise like when newer/exclusive/better clients are spread, or false claims to being scriptless.
Can you name some of these active runners? I feel like you’re dodging the question.
I just released a largest run in goldsource history, HL21, 9 months ago, and have probably done more to proliferate and help the community than any other person.
Wasn't quad largely responsible for that run? I know you might have lead it in the beginning, but you ended up with 0.4% of the segments in the final run, so I wouldn't say you released it. It was uploaded to quad's channel after all.
I don’t think there was any website for scriptless hl1 runs for a long time either, speedrun.com is fairly recent. I might have missed some of the earlier runs that’s probably true. I don’t see how a lack of rules would encourage people to run scriptless. Installing scripts is not rocket science and I’m sure anyone can google that information very easily. The majority of runs in the past were done with scripts(I think?) so it would be only logical that people either a) do whatever they want or b) run with scripts to compete. Nowadays it has changed, the majority of the active runners run scriptless. The conclusion that I make from this is that people wanted to run SS/RTA without scripts.
Slynki admitted to cheating Halo speedruns, so the run you’re talking about may very well not be legitimate. You can go to any Halo speedrunner and ask if you don’t believe me. This isn’t really relevant though.
People using scripts in AG, TFC, and other similar games from these communities is VERY relevant.
Whatever they did was probably great for them and I'm sure they had fun.
Myself and most players of the greater goldsource community
Names please.
or is willing to subject themselves to finger joint injury and arthritis.
lol
At the end of the day the people who actually run the game make the relevant decisions. Some people might respect the opinions of the old school people and take their arguments into consideration. If you end up with some conclusion with the people you deem relevant then that’s great for you guys. If the majority of the active runners aren’t satisfied with the rules you set up they’re of course free to do whatever they want, and will probably continue using the rules that they already established a while ago.
EDIT: To everyone saying that they had no say about the decisions made in this mysterious IRC channel(which anyone can join by the way!) PJC posted the announcement to the forums as well. So “the debate didn’t happen in the Sourceruns forum” isn’t a very convincing excuse. Had you had any issue with the rules you could’ve responded in that thread.
The goal is to stay as vanilla as possible in the any% SS/RTA category. You’re not forced to use WON dlls for this, you can use the original WON, Steam versions as well as NGHL with Bunnymod as long as your settings replicate those of the WON/Steam versions and your run doesn’t use any extra mod functionality (features that were never in the original official versions of the game). This way your run will be viewed as a legitimate any% run by the community.
To make it more clear, these are the settings you need to follow if running with Bunnymod:
[ul][li]If you wish to run without bunnyhop speed cap, your FPS must not exceed 100fps (developer 0). Bunnyhop cap was introduced way back in WON and the FPS was capped to 100fps. The combination of uncapped bunnyhop and uncapped fps is a result of bunnymod and was never in the official versions.[/li]
[li]If you wish to run with uncapped FPS (all the way to 1000fps or more), you must have the bunnyhop cap enabled, as in Steam version.[/li][/ul]
These might vary depending on the expansion.
If you choose to do a run using bunnymod with some of the modifications (>100fps + no bhop cap for example), no one is stopping you, just keep in mind that it won’t fall into any% category and will be labeled (or viewed as) unlimitedfps%, bunnymod% and so on. As simple as that. If all the runs were done under the same category, some people would gain advantage by abusing >100fps (keep in mind that not all of us are able to go up to certain fps values so this would destroy competition and the runners with fastest PCs would have fastest times) and other “features” or “advantages”, making these runs not comparable to each other.
Locking the thread.
If you wish to discuss this topic further, please join the #goldsrc IRC channel on irc.speedrunslive.org
Good, since you’ve done that I have a chance to say my piece.
Every community should be moving away from scripts/automation of any sort for SS/RTA runs. It doesn’t represent skillful gameplay and it doesn’t add any entertainment value. However, bunnyhopping does have its place in source and goldsrc games and that’s why almost every runner does scriptless runs with mwheel. Portal hasn’t used scripts since Demonstrate’s Portal Done Pro, in either SS or segmented runs. They simply aren’t needed in any capacity. I understand there’s a significant difference between scripting a few ABH hops in portal and scripting your main method of movement in goldsrc games, but a vast majority of runners have adapted and adjusted just fine and I don’t see a reason to revert to archaic automation of user inputs.
I’d also like to bring up the fact that the last time Spider-Waffle was involved in a scripts argument, he got banned from the SDA forums in a rather explosive fashion. Please don’t let him bully the community into adopting a standard it’s not interested in.
Overriding Spider-Waffle’s request and exec’s decision to unlock this. I think the last paragraph in z1m’s post is important to note, however. As I’ve told Maximus-X, no new member to this community, even if they’ve contributed as much as they have to the GoldSrc and/or Source speedrunning community, gets any rite-of-passage to make executive decisions or begin imposing their methods onto other members.
Spider-Waffle, we would love for you to be apart of this community, but for the community to work, everyone has to start at the bottom and work their way up from inside the community; not outside. Yes, history is important to note, but this community has thrived for almost 6 years because every single member here respects the methods of individual people, or the adopted methods that other communities, like the SS/RTA community, has long-since established.
Furthermore, this community has never been about upholding conservative views; just because something was done differently in the past, and those who participated within it had these methods well-established, does not shape how it’s done now, nor does it help to shape the future. This was primarily the reason we ultimately told Maximus to take a hike.
Anyway, I’ll stop babbling because I’m not exactly adding anything new to this thread, and I *intend *on keeping this thread locked. All I ask is that we all respect each other here, and not look for any reason to get under each other’s skin. This goes for everybody.