Author Topic: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes  (Read 5494 times)

Elgu

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2015, 08:37:38 »
because who would put the effort into making a full game TAS that'll just be rejected anyway.
It's allowed

Also, you can't script an auto jump in hl2 using only console commands.
you don't need to.

It wouldn't have to be a "full game TAS". Just few sequences could be done "TAS" like and it would be a big advantage.
Yes this. You could for example automate fast kill on the gunships on the first prison map. And most likely a lot more.
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Jukspa

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2015, 09:16:23 »
It wouldn't have to be a "full game TAS". Just few sequences could be done "TAS" like and it would be a big advantage. It would come down to the one using the most/best scripts would win. If this is only a question about having save;load on the same hotkey then it's super stupid. It makes minimal difference in HL 2 to just use two seperate binds for it. For clipping purposes, because of how the game works in my experience, there is no advantage time-wise in having save;load script.

Also the pause command should be discussed.
Pause can be bound from the menu so it's allowed. The wait command is not allowed so all these hypotheses of potential full game TASes are impossible, although I do agree allowing multiple commands to be bound to one key is a bit silly(my opinion). Even if wait was allowed I doubt you'd be able to TAS even small sections due to it desyncing to inconsistent framerate.
And also why didn't I get the choice to participate in the vote?
Oh you didn't? Our bad in that case, none of the votes would've changed based on one vote though.

Elgu

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2015, 09:32:37 »
The wait command is not allowed
o:
since when?
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Jukspa

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2015, 09:43:41 »
The wait command is not allowed
Quote
:o
since when?
I don't think anyone has used it before and there was no rule specifically to allow it. Since there hasn't been a vote about it, as far as I'm concerned it's banned. If there's interest in allowing it then it can be discussed separately, I wouldn't really see a point since it would only allow further automation.

Elgu

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2015, 10:22:11 »
Ye, would be dumb to allow it, better this way. Is there any way to replicate "wait" with other allowed commands. Like pause;unpause all the time. (I can't test anything since I don't have HL2 installed)
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BitRain

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2015, 19:17:11 »
because who would put the effort into making a full game TAS that'll just be rejected anyway.
It's allowed


Nobody is going to do it.


Why can't we just put a limit on the amount of commands allowed to be bound to one button instead of arguing over every single command in the Source Engine or just not allow player movement or viewangle commands because that would allow the ability to make a TAS, all you guys are doing right now is acknowledging the unlikely situation that some idiot is going to make a TAS and call it an RTA run.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 19:21:05 by BitRain »
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PJC

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2015, 20:03:36 »
What sounds better, "this is not allowed" or "this is allowed but if you do it we'll reject your run"? Like Maxam said, it's not even about the extreme, it's about the fake time save gained from constantly creating more and more scripts. It's not a level playing field until you reach the absolute limit.

Also, assuming that TAS tools improve for Source as they have for GoldSrc, at some point you'll likely be able to convert TAS script to in-game script, meaning these kinds of situations will become even more feasible.

BitRain

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2015, 20:44:15 »
Yes, I know its theoretically allowed but why aren't we suggesting ways prevent it, only I have so far and the suggestions have been ignored.
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Maxam

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2015, 23:05:09 »
As I understand it, we are discussing the scriptless category and BitRain is speaking for having a scripted category. I don't know exactly how the question in the vote was phrased but I believe it was something like "Do you think it should be allowed to, with a single input, perform multiple commands at once?". My guess is that people had the save;load thing in mind and voted based on their opinion on that.


So should scriptless be removed or a new category be formed? So if the goal is to have a scripted category then we should pretty much do the same as we currently do with the same situation in HL1?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 23:11:46 by Maxam »

BitRain

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2015, 23:15:45 »
As far as I know the majority of people that took the HL2 rules survey that was sent out is in favor of having "multiple commands bound to one key ie, "save quick;load quick".


I'm not for or against it being scripted, I don't care ether way. But if it does end up that people want to allow multiple commands bound to one button, as PJC says, the problem of people making TASes arrives, this is why I'm asking what we should do to prevent that.


Or we could go the Half Life route and make a scripted category and not have to deal with this issue,  in case someone makes an "RTA TAS".
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PJC

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2015, 23:40:11 »
It is indeed likely that people voted in favour of it with save;load in mind, which is a solid example of why direct democracy in a community like this isn't going to work most of the time. The fact is that the majority of the outer community are highly uneducated on this kind of stuff, nor do they care enough to be educated on it. This probably explains why a lot of people are so reluctant to discuss or be involved with decisions, especially considering they are only remotely connected with SourceRuns itself. Therefore, it makes more sense if the people that do know what they're talking about act as representatives and discuss issues rationally and objectively until a solution is met.

In this case, the ill-informed win because they're the majority.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 23:58:13 by PJC »

RootHalo

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2015, 05:05:11 »
In this case, the ill-informed win because they're the majority.




That is a bit rude isn't it? So people can't make their own decisions based on what they think will be cool and fun? They are ALL uneducated and ill-informed? Do you even want new people to run games and submit them to SR?




not flaming here or kicking a hornets nest, just felt like that might be a rude to people who are genuinely trying to make runs for the benefit of the community..
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 05:44:36 by RootHalo »
Code: [Select]
alias sprayman "decalfrequency 0;host_framerate .01;alias _special spraymen;spraymen;unbindall;sensitivity -5;+forward"
alias spraymen "impulse 201;wait;special"
bind t sprayman
credit ^ quadrazid

PJC

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2015, 07:44:35 »
It isn't rude in the slightest. It's an observation, not an attack. Is it possible to provide the knowledge? Yes, via the Wiki, tutorials and other means, but you can't impose that knowledge on people, they have to gather it themselves, many of which won't because the most they care about is being able to set up the game and learning how to speedrun it; this is fine. However, being able to set up the game and run it is one thing; making sensible decisions on convoluted issues for the greater good of not only the current community, but also future communities is another thing.

Outsiders can become insiders by becoming more knowledgeable and experienced, the same way that insiders can become outsiders by becoming inactive and not keeping up with the times. I am not singling out a group of individuals, I am attempting to explain why the system used here didn't work.

Ever complain about websites like YouTube and Twitch constantly updating their layout, rules, etc? We're all guilty of it at first, but then a month or two down the line you've already gotten used to it, you're not complaining anymore and you're possibly more understanding as to why such changes were made. The initial reaction is based on conservatism; this isn't healthy for a speedrunning community where most of the rules weren't thought out properly in the first place.

Do you even want new people to run games and submit them to SR?

No, clearly not, that's why I set up the leaderboards, IRC channel, became an admin to support the development of the site, brought together an initially very scattered GoldSrc community, regularly offer help wherever I'm able etc.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 17:03:33 by PJC »

RootHalo

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2015, 08:09:21 »
Then stop making these open discussions? If you want to tell people THESE are the rules you must follow.. Then simply dictate those rules? If you let people choose what they want then you are bound to get the results you personally do not want.


Leave it to the mods to make and layout the rules. I don't see what the issue is. Really. It could be so simple but it is almost intentionally being over-discussed and over thought? imho. What is this Bitrain said about a questionnaire? Who was that sent out to? Are they ill-informed or uneducated? Looks to me like 90% of the people on this site are uneducated and just wrong all the time.


It was quite rude mate, not to me, but others that really actually did think about it and then still voted out of your favour. you basically said to everyone that voted for what you're against uneducated and ill-informed? Everyone would probably love to have all the rules set in stone but everyone also knows that things change, like you even said. So why is it a problem and why did it need to be addressed in such a way? I just couldn't fathom why you would say something like that PJC, it didn't make sense to me you of all people would post that graph annotated in that way. I tried to discuss with you about rules and stuff but it is really hard to grasp what you actually want because it always just goes back to "people can't be bothered"
Code: [Select]
alias sprayman "decalfrequency 0;host_framerate .01;alias _special spraymen;spraymen;unbindall;sensitivity -5;+forward"
alias spraymen "impulse 201;wait;special"
bind t sprayman
credit ^ quadrazid

Jukspa

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Re: Rule changes regarding HL2 and the episodes
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2015, 08:26:43 »
So should scriptless be removed or a new category be formed? So if the goal is to have a scripted category then we should pretty much do the same as we currently do with the same situation in HL1?
Just to clarify any sort out of the game macros and scripts or any additional automation(including SPT) is not allowed. The goal is not to make a scripted category, I guess you can think of it as scriptless + save/load bind if you consider multiple inputs bound to one key a script.
I don't know exactly how the question in the vote was phrased
"Should having multiple commands bound to the same key be allowed?" was the question.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 08:29:45 by Jukspa »